Will anybody really need a meter (and grid connection) in the near future?

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Will anybody really need a meter (and grid connection) in the near future?

(20 posts) (10 voices)

Started 11 years ago by rsigmund
Latest reply from sanctuarymiss

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consumer

rsigmund
Member

In the not too distant future it should be possible to power a household using micro generation at an affordable price...

This is being driven by many factors and locally there is another - rate and service fee increases creating incentive to look for alternatives.

For example for considerable cost you can design and install a standalone battery backed solar system and despatch any need for a grid connection. As the cost of the systems is reduced or the grid alternative becomes more expensive - this will become a viable alternative.

Many grid connected dwellings have a natural gas connection from which impressive amounts electricity can be produced using domestic fuel cells: which are on the verge of commercially entering the Australian market (blue gen).

Our governments appear to have a 30 year plan much like the last 30 years - Technology is rapidly changing...

Is a grid connection and meter in every house going to continue to be the norm?

Posted Friday 15 Oct 2010 @ 3:10:12 am from IP #
sanctuarymiss
Member

I have followed CFU for a while now, as always seems to be moving ahead more overseas than here. Any idea of the costs?

Posted Friday 15 Oct 2010 @ 8:48:07 am from IP #
PV2010
Member

about $55,000 in NSW, plus annual costs for gas and maintenance including filter replacements.
Its a bit of a hedge at the moment due to long term reliability issues. However, I felt like that about PV years ago.
As there is demand so prices can come down. It would be great to see them take off, as they are in most regards an Australian product(They use a SMA inverter).
I have been lucky enough to check one out, I'll have to stick one on the wish list, now where is that community grant application form.......???

I think the grid is essential ,like the NBN. I believe that with the realisation of a full smart communicative grid, energy users will be able to dictate if they buy or sell power. I have been to few iGrid presentations and believe it offers a good vision to a low carbon future. Check out

http://igrid.net.au/

I appreciate there are issues in Vic with the roll out of meters,as noted by forum users. But we are looking at a paradigm shift, a shift to more efficient energy use/generation.

Posted Friday 15 Oct 2010 @ 10:19:27 am from IP #
CNCandy
Member

My old man is so keen on this as to dismiss anything else. I don't think it will have a big take up here as its not renewable so won't get you any REC's so no rebates. Other countries which are a bit more forward thinking might have something for low emission technologies.

Reading the documentation it says something along the lines of one Major service every year and a minor service every 4 months (3000hrs) which is probably the fuel cells which you'd have to get from them. The upside of all this maintenance is that its a 2kw/hr self generating power system. Also it says 1.67 l/hr of hot water which you'd need to store or use and then keep it hot in some kind of storage tank.

12.6MJ of gas use per hour, not sure of that in $ ?

http://www.cfcl.com.au/BlueGen/
brochure at the bottom of the page.

NECO is the Distributor but haven't seen anything in the way of pricing.

Posted Friday 15 Oct 2010 @ 10:31:29 am from IP #
Karl
Member

SMA is a German company...
Micro generation and 'the grid' aren't mutually exclusive, they're complimentary. Part of the whole concept of the 'Smart Grid' is the ability to have distributed storage and generation. Of *course* you can decide to go it stand alone if you want to, *or* you can decide to generate power yourself and feed it back into the grid and make money from it as part of a decentralised power generation solution.
This is one of the reasons I don't get the whole debate about power companies creating huge monopolies and profits, when this very thread is providing the answer; you've got choice!

Posted Friday 15 Oct 2010 @ 10:38:32 am from IP #
sanctuarymiss
Member

http://www.cerespower.com/OurMarkets/EnergySecurity/ Another one I was reading about

At 55 grand its out of the reach of the average household, choice what choice? I will have to wait for a while.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/city-beat/bright-sparks-solution/story-e6frg9no-1225894288727
Interesting article here for you Karl.
http://www.thefifthestate.com.au/archives/15812

Posted Friday 15 Oct 2010 @ 11:38:51 am from IP #
PV2010
Member

I agree with Karl in that micro generation gives a choice. It is our poor energy consumption decisions (which most of us of made at one time or another, I am a reformed halogen user) that make it seem we don't have choice. With increasing FiT for renewables and the choice in sustainable housing/living our choice is if we can adjust our lifestyles to consume more appropriately. The following article is worth a read, the first two paragraphs sum it up.
http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/AGL-Energy-boomerang-paradox-fuel-poverty

(BTW Karl I was trying to infer that Blue Gen is in most regards from Australia rather than wholly Australian as often quoted, )

CNCandy
The blue gen is the fuel cell,its really cool how it works
http://www.cfcl.com.au/Fuel_Cell_Facts/ (2nd link).

At max efficiency the output is 1.5kWe(36kWh day) this gives 0.5kWth(12kWh/day (43Mj))
http://www.cfcl.com.au/BlueGen/ (tech spec link page 2)

SanctuaryMiss
A quick calc shows energy savings are around $1400 per annum with SPT= 15+++++years...
(i tried to be generous with the estimation)
Gas = 1.82c/MJ @12.6 MJ/hr
All electricity would be used on site (no GFiT) kWh replacement cost = 20c/kWH
Hot water would replace elec hot water
no maintenance costs were factored in
GHG saving 14 tonnes per annum (NSW scope 1 & 2 only)
mmmmmm....

if heat pumps can get RECs....maybe we have to wait for energy efficient certificates (in 2012?) anyone good at lobbying?

I think micro CHP would be a better option, at least financially at this stage.But this wouldn't suit small dwellings such as houses, especially with the quantity of hot water produced from a CHP say at 20kWe.
So is another paradigm shift required to shift the culture that forces (nearly) every house and many multi dwelling apartments to operate as a standalone independent units? Does efficiency in shared resources offer greater benefits? I think the data (and 50,000 years of evolution) speaks for itself.

Posted Friday 15 Oct 2010 @ 12:20:09 pm from IP #
Karl
Member

Hi Sanctuarymiss, thanks for the article, and I'd agree with almost all of what's written in it. There might be some confusion though. That article is referring to the Smart Grid project that's being funded in NSW to the tune of $100m, not to the concept of 'the smart grid' in general, which is what I'm referring to. The article is still in favour of modernising our electricity generation/distribution system by way of a 'smart grid', as am I: "So let’s by all means have a Smart Grid – but let’s make it a national Smart Grid. Let’s regulate our electricity networks so that it’s in their interests to deliver these kinds of interests."

I've always tried to stress the difference between the solution (i.e. the smart grid) and the way in which it's implemented. I firmly believe we need to modernise our 100 year old electricity network. The specific *implementation* of it should of course be argued though, as should who actually then pays for it.

Posted Friday 15 Oct 2010 @ 9:28:42 pm from IP #
Catopsilia
Member

Hi sanctuarymiss

I am afraid this whole thread is incomprehensible to me since you introduced the acronym "CFU" which I do not know, and Wikipedia is no help.
I can't be sure, but I think the following posts all relate to the same thing (e.g. "My old man is so keen on this"). How does this all follow from the question in the Opening Post?
If CFU is what everyone is discussing, I need to know what it means.

Posted Saturday 16 Oct 2010 @ 12:01:24 am from IP #
PV2010
Member

Catopsilia
(I assumed CFU was ceramic fuel cell, and it was a bit of a typo based on the first post).

You wrote ...How does this all follow from the question in the Opening Post?
The original question is... will anyone need (a meter) grid connection in the near future?
For me it brings up a number of questions; Will we have standalone dwellings (or groups of houses) or will we better share our resources? How will we interact with a grid and what will it look like? What technologies will allow use to interact on the grid,ceramic fuel cells,PV with storage, cogen (or other CHP)? Do we need iGrid? Will houses or areas be capable of islanding from the grid?(as some commercial buildings can currently do).. What role will energy efficiency play in an individual becoming a micro generator?

I think its a great topic, about 8-9 years ago I worked on a job where the customer thought the grid was going to collapse , so they spent alot of money wiring the house up in 12V with RAPS system, whilst connecting to the grid (not PV). In hindsight would they have been better to spend the money on a 3-4kw grid connect system, and purchase a cheap generator for the 8 hours or so the grid fails each year? What should we working towards to achieve a low carbon future?

Posted Saturday 16 Oct 2010 @ 7:33:03 am from IP #
smilty
Member

I was at a recent Exhibition in Melbourne a saw the Ceramic Fuel Cell generator from CFU and it looks pretty good. It generates 2kW of electricity and hot water and can do this continuously 24 hours a day if you want.

They have sold 40 units to the government for demo purposes an they said it costs about $45,000 but that price is very approximate because they are not producing them commercially as yet and if and when they do we will probably see them much cheaper?

Looking inside, I cannot see that they should cost more that say $15,000 if they were commercially produced - something similar to a 2kW PV solar system?

On present calculations it would cost about $3/day (gas) to produce 36kWh of electricity and as much hot water as you'll every need - that compares with a cost of about $6.90 to get 36kWh of electricity at flat rate?

Its a possible way to go independent (would need battery storage) - and if you could get paid a feed-in tariff at 60c/kWh then you could earn a nice income?

Posted Sunday 17 Oct 2010 @ 10:33:40 am from IP #
Geno
Member

The CFU unit is an interesting concept and is on its way to being taken up in Europe, however the hot water is a by product and it will produce sufficient hot water to boost existng hot water needs but not enough quantity according to the manufacturer to replace a HWS. At this stage it does not qualify for the 60c feed in tarrif or any of the subsidies that PV get, however we can hope that the feed in rate will change. A recent talk by CFU to a group of brokers indicated the price of the system could drop to $8,000 once production ramps up. The German plant which is more automated than the original Australian plant should provide some of those efficencies. It will be possible to have both a PV system and the CFU product, operating on seperate inverters and both pumping into the grid.

One of the advantages to the Europeans is that it will boost their Hydronic (wall radiator) systems utlising the by product, producing power and lowering household energy consumption at the same time. This could well be part of the future, it is not completely green because it consumes natural gas, but does so very efficently, and produces a lot less CO2 than coal.

Posted Sunday 17 Oct 2010 @ 9:21:54 pm from IP #
sanctuarymiss
Member

CFU stock code for ceramic fuel cells sorry the investor in me. Followed it's progress on and off for a while. georgey no investment advice here is just a source to find recent announcements, always do your own research on those matters.

Posted Monday 18 Oct 2010 @ 12:10:24 am from IP #
georgey
Member

Hi sanctuarymiss, I don't quite get what you mean?
If the share price is bad, it dosn't mean the product or concept is bad?

Posted Monday 18 Oct 2010 @ 12:23:08 am from IP #
Geno
Member

Sanctuarymiss is giving the Australian Stock Exchange company code for CFU the makers of the bluegen product. It doesn't mean it is a bad product at all and that is not implied in that post. A number of share brokers are taking an interest in it and they have been issuing reviews and recommendations, these could be summarised as an interesting company but be mindful that this is new technology.

Posted Monday 18 Oct 2010 @ 12:47:32 am from IP #
PV2010
Member

can anyone send a link for brokers/market interest in the CFU?
I'd still like to see one installed on one of my projects so any supporting financial info will help push it up the list of potential project. i appreciate there is still a slight hedge especially in regards to recurring costs.
But with the shadow of climate change casting its shadow across our lands we need a bigger arsenal as we can get.And that means supporting Aussie companies

Posted Thursday 21 Oct 2010 @ 12:08:49 pm from IP #
Michael L.
Member

Like sanctuarymiss I am also a CFU shareholder. Looking at the neco site, domestic installations will be around $25,000 when they are sold in Victoria, and the company is lobbying the Vic Govt. for RECS and FIT to help make the product more acceptable on price.
In NSW the units are being sold by Harvey Norman conmmercial.
I don't want to sound as if I'm doing a sell here but, PV2010 they are looking for domestic and industrial "guinea pigs" to install and check on costing, so maybe get in touch with them. CFU is an Australian Co. that is also listed in Europe, and the manufacturing is done in both Germany and Victoria.
The Vic. state housing authority has signed up to trial about 20 units in public housing to examine costs of usage. The price of Gas has to be one of the concerns of course, and it is not exactly a clean generating source, however much better it is that coal.

Posted Friday 22 Oct 2010 @ 1:24:32 am from IP #
sanctuarymiss
Member

Not actually a holder Michael, just fascinated with the idea when I come across it, check in on them once in a while but haven't for a while, if you have any links to the trials would love to read them.

Posted Friday 22 Oct 2010 @ 1:52:48 pm from IP #
PV2010
Member

Michael L.
With the "Guinea Pigs", its seems they have enough, tried that last year then two months ago.I'll see what happens in the next few weeks

With the gas/coal issue what to do? I'll take the lesser of two evils. Gas is a lower carbon bridging fuel available today. All the chit chat of large renewables with storage is not a reality in the next few years. From memory we have 0.5 degrees of warming locked in just from the transition from high to low/no carbon energy infrastructure. We have to act today

Posted Tuesday 26 Oct 2010 @ 11:20:08 am from IP #
sanctuarymiss
Member

PV2010 let us know how you go if they need another, let me know as very interested in finding out more. Any info on how the trials are progressing Michael?

Posted Tuesday 26 Oct 2010 @ 10:38:45 pm from IP #

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