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Swimming pools

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Started 8 years ago by jeff
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jeff
Member

What if...............
What if someone designed and built an organic swimming pool that never required chemicals or additives, ever.
What if that pool could function using only one 100 watt pump, powered by solar.
What if the water was very clear and drinking quality.

Would anyone in Australia be interested? It doesn't really look like it.

I've tried very hard to promote what I have designed and built. I'm not a retailer trying to sell 'stuff'
I'm someone who has been absolutely impressed by what is happening in Europe in regard to this type of pool, and have designed my own 'system' which is not only as good, but in many cases better than what the Europeans are doing.

There are others in Australia building these pools using imported technology and components, however very few Australian systems that I'm aware of.

I'll add that these pools are eco systems that are capable of sustaining any fresh water insect, fish or reptile.

Why is there very little interest in something so good, I don't understand.

Posted Saturday 15 Jun 2013 @ 4:56:33 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Oh well, I guess Australia isn't ready for this.
I should have done some more research first.

Posted Thursday 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:44:54 am from IP #
Sunshine
Member

Jeff,
A quick check shows the cost of retrofitting a pool to go natural pool, is $10,000 to $15,000.
That's alot of cash.
There are alternatives to natural pools like ionisers for $1200, which are chemical free, except a cup of oxidiser/chlorine once a week, which is much cheaper, and doesn't require a pond area in the backyard.

Posted Thursday 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:48:43 pm from IP #
JohnB
Member

The old swimming pool at my '70s vintage place causes about half of the total power consumption, and that is with the pump hours turned well down.

On a modern energy efficient building with no/minimal heating or cooling, good lighting etc any conventional pool must represent a very large chunk of the energy bill, so methods of building and running pools with minimal energy input make good sense.

I'm interested to know more, and while there hasn't been a flood of questions, I'm sure others would be interested in knowing more too.

Posted Thursday 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:56:55 pm from IP #
jeff
Member

Thanks for your interest Sunshine.

There are certainly 'lower chemical requirement' pools these days. And there are also 'completely and utterly chemical free' pools, in the sense that nothing is ever added to the water. It is completely unsanitised.

I have fish in my pool. Swallows skim the water for a drink. The cats drink it. So does the dog. So have I actually, and it tastes better than the rainwater in my twenty year old concrete tank.

Prices to convert a pool to completely non chemical are very subjective, and should be thoroughly investigated.
Trouble with that is there are not many people to ask opinions.
My opinion, be wary of anyone selling these pools or conversions. Be wary of me too, and ask to see what I've done, how I do it, and also perhaps ask to see water tests conducted by.....in my case Albury City Council. They came and took a sample from my pool and sent it for analysis by a NATA accredited laboratory in Melbourne. The short version of the analysis is "high quality water" which is "satisfactory for the purpose of swimming and water based recreation" Has a council ever said that before? I doubt it.
Of interest, my pool water is ph 7.5 Always. Never changes.

There will be some huge failures by people attempting to build these pools without understanding what they are doing, and why they are doing it.
I have eight years experience with my own pool now, perfecting the design concept.
I don't use any fancy, overpriced components with my 'name' on it.
The rubber liner that I use is made in America by Firestone. The pumps are Australian or German, depending on whether I need 12 volt or 240.
Most all other components are from Australian companies and purchased from Bunnings, Reece plunbing, Boral masonry etc.

There are two very separate things that must work, and continue to work.
Construction of the structure, and the habitat for the biology to survive.

Having said all that, the principle or concept which makes these pools work is very simple.
It just needs to be a very considered design from the beginning.

I will answer anyone's questions and point them in the right direction.
Can I explain how to build one on a forum? No, because it would take a book almost, and every pool has different construction requirements.

Posted Friday 21 Jun 2013 @ 5:15:44 am from IP #
gazmo88
Member

"What if someone designed and built an organic swimming pool that never required chemicals or additives, ever."

We have some Belgian friends who were quite shocked that we were not considering a "Natural" pool. At the time I knew nothing about them.

They had just built one at their holiday house in Southern Italy. They love it.They tell me its a trend that is gaining momentum in Europe.

I am guessing therefore that you are probably 20 years too early for Australia.

Sorry.

Posted Friday 21 Jun 2013 @ 7:45:15 am from IP #
fireflies
Member

jeff - I can understand that there is a complex interaction of something and something else and water but can you give a brief overview of how the Natural pool system remains clear of phosphates/ nitrates and general algae food? are nutrients consumed in a secondary holding tank, or sequestered in a population of organisms in the pool - ie an ecosystem where higher order consumers extract the lower order diatoms, algae, cyanobacteria at the same rate 'nutrients are added to the pool through use/ etc. I'm curious.

Posted Friday 21 Jun 2013 @ 12:29:31 pm from IP #
Sunshine
Member

Jeff,
I only ever need to add acid to the pool is after rain.
Sounds like your rain is more acidic where you are?
The acid is only added to keep ph around 7.0, is to stop eyes from hurting the swimmers.
A cup of chlorine a week for oxidisation, is gone within an hour or two from the sun, so is chemical free pool.
Copper and silver ions are used for sanitisation, but they are elements not chemicals.

Posted Friday 21 Jun 2013 @ 11:21:49 pm from IP #
jeff
Member

Great questions fireflies!

When it comes to analysing how these pools work, we can look closer and closer and closer until we are looking face to face with an individual bacteria.
But we don't need to know things in such fine detail.
I certainly don't know it all. To find out all those finer details would lead me on another career path as a micro biologist.
What we need to know is basically what happens in nature, and build a system that will allow nature to 'move in' so to speak and live happily.

What we want to happen in a natural pool is almost the same as what we want to happen in a fish tank. That is, for an effective nitrogen cycle where ammonia is changed to nitrite and then to nitrate.
Very basically, ammonia is converted to nitrite by nitrobacter. Nitrite is then converted to nitrate by nitrosomonas.
We know the nitrogen cycle is complete when we test the water and measure no ammonia or nitrites. Ideally we want to measure no nitrates either, which means plants and algae are doing the required job.

Nitrate is a plant food, and that is why these pools have plants. The plants take up the nitrates and are supposed to out-compete algae for food.
That is quite impossible really, considering how simple a plant algae is. Algae will always beat vascular plants to food.
My preference is to USE algae to absorb excess nutrients, and then to remove algae as required, taking the nutrients with it. Algae is also excellent at 'catching' fine particles moving around in the system. Once again, remove the algae and take the fine particles with it.
My separate gravel bio-filter has an area of approximately 40 square metres which will grow an algal lawn when nutrients allow. The result of this is excellent water.
The gravel is just over 70% quartz and is responsible for holding or 'buffering' the ph at 7.5

Swimming in one of these pools won't add very much in the way of nutrients unless many sweaty people jump in! But that doesn't really matter if the system is built to handle such a situation. A sufficiently sized bio-filter will handle it.

Posted Saturday 22 Jun 2013 @ 1:02:02 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Sunshine,

I'm not opposed to conventional pools at all. I spent several years in Melbourne building concrete pools for a builder. I didn't get involved with balancing the pool water for the customer though.

I went away from conventional pools because I'd been there and done that. I then used my skills and acquired knowledge to build fish ponds and wildlife ponds. Far more interesting.
Then my pond liner supplier said to check out a particular web site for natural pools.
I was immediately hooked and knew what I wanted to do from then on.

The difference between the pool types is huge. Natural pools are alive, conventional pools are dead.

I will say that the pool chemical industry can be a huge con job. When I go to a pool shop to buy specific valves or pipe fittings, I can't help but laugh at the 'giant wall of chemicals' Hundreds of them!
I kind of like the idea of not needing any of them.

A natural pool is not for everyone, and I have suggested a few times to people that a sanitised pool would be far better for them. People who only have a small space, with lots of kids, a very busy life, etc.

For every success story with ionised pools there seems to be failure story too.
But it is greatly a matter of using appropriate system and being educated sufficiently on its proper maintenance .

Posted Saturday 22 Jun 2013 @ 1:34:36 am from IP #
fireflies
Member

Thanks jeff, that gives me a bit of a clearer idea what is going on in the Natural pool system. It is interesting that you use a quartz based filter - I wonder whether that may be contributing to the system over what pea gravel for instance might do. I have read on aquaculture sites of a product that is basically a micronised silicon dioxide (the basic compound in quartz)+ iron- which provides an essential nutrient (silica) to diatoms. These diatoms are rapid growing, photosynthesizers - and if these nutrients are supplied apparently will out compete algae for the other nutrients in the system. It would be interesting for someone to have a look at your water for what is in there as far as nutrient gobblers. (Diatoms are readily consumed (more so than algae or cyanobacteria) by many higher order in/vertebrates - eg daphnia and/or fish). They are hugely more effective at taking up nitrates than reed beds/ waterlillies and such which I assume are part of your plant component of the system. Anyways. That's satiated my curiousity for Natural water pools and I'll store the concept away for another day. Cheers

Posted Saturday 22 Jun 2013 @ 2:29:38 pm from IP #
Sunshine
Member

Jeff,
I don't like chlorine/salt water chlorine pools either.
I hate the smell and health risks associated with chlorine.
Just wanted to raise the point that there are alternatives (cheaper) and requires much less retrofitting than natural pools, with virtually the same end result, yet still have perfectly clear water.
A salt water/chlorinated pool can be converted over to ionised in less than an hour for around $1200.

Posted Saturday 22 Jun 2013 @ 11:36:39 pm from IP #
jeff
Member

Thanks Sunshine, you've given some interesting information for me to research.
One thing I have learned, is there are so many ways to achieve a desired outcome in regards to water quality. It all depends on what we're doing with the water, and what quality the water is to begin with.

my pool accumulates very little in added nutrients other than from swimming, rain, dust etc so the need to remove nutrients is also low.

When it comes to the choice for a bio-filter medium, I like it simple as possible.
Quartz is almost? inert, and has little effect on water chemistry.
Many aquaculture, aquaponics, koi breeders etc use plastic balls and other shapes.
They use plastic for the same reason I use quartz, being its nil effect on water chemistry.
The gravel in natural pools also plays a huge role in determining what the ph will be.
Some rock types will hold the water ph too high or too low, and there is nothing one can do to permanently change that ph. Any additives used to alter ph (which is totally against the natural pool principle)may change the ph for a short time before the gravel returns the water ph to what it was.
The gravel in my pool is 70+% quartz. The rest is meta greywack? if that's the correct spelling, plus other rock types. It is a naturally occurring blend of rock from the Murray River valley.
It is cheap and readily available, although I need to clean it to remove fine clay particles that would otherwise cloud the water and be very difficult to remove once the pool system is circulating.

One German? designed natural pool system that has come to Australia requires the use of special 'granules' at a ridiculous cost. It's just not necessary.

I have also used granite aggregate which is also local and readily available. Almost the same ph value.
Considering that I use almost 10 tons for a bio-filter, cost and availability are hugely important factors.

My pool is 8.5 Celsius this morning so I think I'll pass on a swim. Tomorrow too probably.

Posted Saturday 22 Jun 2013 @ 11:54:02 pm from IP #
jeff
Member

Sunshine,
For an existing pool, an ioniser conversion is a good switch, when done correctly.
What I'm doing is 'new pool' construction.

There have been many conversions done in Europe from what I've seen on the net, some of them stunning.
These conversions required major construction changes including an added 'external' bio-filter.
The conversions you mentioned earlier are most likely 'in pool' systems, where the bio-filter media etc is installed in the pool. Not exactly my cup of tea. I haven't read much feedback from people who have gone this way.

Posted Sunday 23 Jun 2013 @ 3:48:08 am from IP #
TonyT
Member

Over many years, irrigation farmers have convinced me that many "Water Conditioner" devices DO change the properties of water.

A list of Water Conditioners is at
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

Like most scientists, I was once a "fundamentalist" who poured scorn on these devices and did not need to test them because I "knew" (based on irrefutable, fundamental scientific principles) that they could not possibly work:
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/index.html

Insights into how they work may be explained by the scientific research that is reported in
http://faculty.washington.edu/ghp/new-book/

Posted Sunday 23 Jun 2013 @ 6:07:48 am from IP #
gazmo88
Member

Jeff,

For the benefit of those of us with little exposure to the natural pool phenomena, and I reckon thats probably most of us, do you have a recommended reading list ?

Cheers

Posted Sunday 23 Jun 2013 @ 6:49:00 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Tony, sounds like you like the idea of putting nothing in the water/doing nothing to the water, and allowing nature to move in and do the work in a constructed environment.
All I need is a low powered pump to circulate the water.
I often say no chemicals, no additives, no electronic gizmos, no nothing, just a pump.

Posted Sunday 23 Jun 2013 @ 6:56:45 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Gazmo,

To answer your question, no.
I haven't found all the necessary information in one article or book.
There is one book that I'm aware of that specifically deals with how to build them, although there are several construction flaws, and irrelevant information to suit Australian conditions.

I have found sufficient information from personal observations and trawling the net.
The most closely related systems are aquaponics, aquaculture, fish tanks and bio-filters.
Then there needs to be a good amount of creative design thinking, along with an understanding of how a certain design function will affect the next function......

As I mentioned earlier, the concept is very simple, there's no phenomena. The difficulty is designing a system that will function, and continue to function without bio-filters blocking up, pools overflowing, algae taking over, structures failing etc.

Googling 'natural swimming pools' and 'swimming ponds' will also show who is out there, and lots of pictures etc.

Posted Sunday 23 Jun 2013 @ 7:59:18 am from IP #
pulpo
Member

It has always surprised me why natural pools are not considered more often.

I'm always advocating them; I think I have convinced a mate to do a conversion.

My bother built a standard pool, he was interested in natural pools but shy of me building it, he was not interested.

Jeff how often does the water need to go through the filter bed?

What do you do with the debris on the bottom of the pool/pond.

Thanks

Pulpo

Posted Monday 24 Jun 2013 @ 1:03:45 am from IP #
gabs247
Member

Out of interest, what stops virus/bacteria transmission if people are swimming in the pool? Keeping the pool looking clean is one thing, but if a carrier jumps in and spreads something before it can be 'filtered' out then you have a problem...no?

Sorry, I don't know much about natural or chemical pools, just a question really as I am interested in a pool that avoids chemicals too, but still not sure how effective the alternatives are.

Posted Monday 24 Jun 2013 @ 7:17:04 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Pulpo,

My pool turns over about 1.25 times each 24 hours.
I vacuum my pool with conventional pole and hose and the vacuumed water goes into a 'panel filter' which I have designed and built.
All the water that goes up the vac hose goes into the panel filter and returns to the bio-filter pool, minus 99%+ detritus material.
After I have vacuumed, I clean the 8 individual panels from the filter with a pressure washer. This might use 100 litres of water, or less. If I wanted, I could capture that 100 litres and return 95% of it to the pool.

Many people complain of string algae in their natural pool. The algae is not the problem. Dealing with the algae is the problem, but no-one has a panel filter like I have.
I do believe My system is better than anything in Europe in this regard.

Posted Monday 24 Jun 2013 @ 7:52:14 am from IP #
jeff
Member

gabs,

I'll start to answer your question by saying that after 7 summers in my pool, no one in my family has caught a bug from the pool. No gastro type bugs, no eye problems, no ear problems, no skin problems, what others are there?
I'm sure there are many.
I could go to my pool and drink a big glass of water at any time of the year, without a worry. But! that is 'my' natural pools. I cannot comment on the health of someone else's system.

If a person who was rather sick got in the pool, there is a chance of them passing a bug.
It comes down to being similar to the 'needle in a haystack' situation.
So, the ideal is to have a lot of hay (water)in relation to the bather load.
Sick people should not swim in anyone's pool, chemical or not, full stop.
People get sick from swimming in chemical pools. How many private pools would be running at minimum health standards..........

Posted Monday 24 Jun 2013 @ 8:09:01 am from IP #
Sunshine
Member

If you have algae problems its due to phosphate in the water.
Phosphate comes from airborne dust which has fertilisers in it, and from organic matter falling into pool, like leaves and poo from bats and birds, and thirdly from organic matter breaking down like algae and plants.
You need to use Starver to remove the phosphate.
Algae and plants when they die, forms phosphate, which feeds to next generation of algae.

Posted Monday 24 Jun 2013 @ 1:15:19 pm from IP #
jeff
Member

I can't use anything chemical to remove/improve anything.....
I tested my water for phosphates on Saturday with my Aquaspex/microtest kit and showed little if any phosphate.
There are non-chemical ways to remove it though, such as 'binders' which can be natural materials like zeolite.
The binders attach to the ions of phosphate? which can be collected, for want of a better word.
I can't remember if phosphate is negatively or positively charged but the principle is 'opposites attract'

In my case though as mentioned earlier, I use algae to help produce the high water quality that I enjoy.
I remove algae, which in turn removes phosphates and other nutrients.

Posted Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 @ 6:07:06 am from IP #
gabs247
Member

Thanks Jeff. Sorry to sound cynical, but saying that no one has become sick in 7 years of your single pool is good, but doesn't prove much. This is where it just takes one FAIL to disprove the theory, but no matter how many PASSES, it doesn't really prove anything. Those pushing Ionisers give the same story, that no one has gotten sick, therefore they are SAFE. It's the old "Pebble that keeps tigers away" claim, you don't see any tigers do you? And just because a pool looks clean, doesn't mean it is safe to drink, the signs in national parks always say that don't they...the cleanest water usually harbours the most deadly bacteria?

But anyway, I'm not saying that Chemicals are any better or worse than Ionisers or Natural pools, their microbe killing behaviour is just better understood. As you've mentioned, you've got your pool balanced and working well, but how do you do "sell" (and prove) that, at least Ionisers are products that can be sold for any pool, plug and play. Again, not saying one is better than another, just trying to add thoughts to the thread :S

Maybe I just think/worry too much.

Posted Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 @ 7:32:33 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Thanks gabs,

The questions and thoughts of others are exactly what I was hoping to raise.
I have nothing to prove, as such. I do have results to share.
I can't claim that no-one has become sick from swimming in a natural pool.
Ioniser salespeople can't claim that no-one has become sick from swimming in an ionised pool.

I would say that swimming, playing and diving in my pool with my family for seven summers without illness is pretty darn good tho'!

It is possible to become sick from swimming in a perfectly operating chemical pool.

How I have sold my natural pool concept to others is when they've come and had a look at my pool.
Even with a website and sporadic advertising I haven't had a lot of interest.
I have some youtube videos, one with 75,000 views. Half the views are from America.
I can say though, that the last three 'peoples' that looked at my pool (because they were interested in the natural pool concept), now have a pool built by me.

I did have one lady look at my pool just over a year ago. She was after a conventional pool initially and became interested when I said I don't do chemical, I do natural.
I hadn't bothered cleaning the pool to its best because it was winter, and because I like people to see warts and all.
She said "You swim in that!?" Quite funny really. Mind you the water was its usual high clarity, it just needed a vacuum.
She would probably be very happy with an ionised pool, but I think she would be most happy with a chlorinated pool knowing that everything in the water was dead at least three times over.
She and her husband owned a chemist store........

I really don't try to sell anything. I much prefer people to convince me to build one for them.

A natural pool or swimming pond is just another option for a pool. Nothing more.

Posted Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 @ 8:59:06 am from IP #
fireflies
Member

gabs247 does raise a very good point. The things that cause illness from water arent visible things like algae, or things that affect clarity like suspended sediment. It would be amoeba - amoebic meningitis, a regular concern from 'natural' pools such as waterholes, freshwater lakes etc, enteroviruses, Coxsackie virus, Legionnaires, E. coli and other enteric bacteria. A salt water pool with high salinity and not necessarily free chlorine would kill a lot of these but fresh untreated water would be a very attractive environment for these bugs. Hence - once the bugs were in there they would be there for a while - and in the case of amoebic meningitis or Legionnaires would proliferate once the temperature was maintained above 25 deg or so. It would remain a concern unless regular monitring for an E. coli count or looking for other pathogens was done. If someone was to fall ill due to the prescence of some of these they would fall very sick indeed, even fall dead

Posted Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 @ 1:22:46 pm from IP #
jeff
Member

Thank fireflies,

There are certainly concerns to be addressed with bathing in unsanitised water.
But where do we start in assessing the risks and at what point do we draw a conclusion.

I grew up swimming in the King river in N.E. Victoria. A beautiful stream with run-off from surrounding farmland sustaining cattle, tobacco and grapes.
Locals drank water straight from the river, untreated. I don't recall ever falling ill from swimming in it, even in summer when water flow was low.

People have swum in dams and less than ideal waterways for a long time now. And yes, people have become very ill and died from doing so.
But when was the last reported fatality caused by amoebic meningitis? From my research prior to, and after building my pool, Western Australia was/is the most vocal in regards to the dangers of amoebic meningitis.
Amoebic meningitis favors water temps above 38c from memory.

People have died from using potting mix. People have contracted legionnaires in hospital.
People get illnesses passed to them from others at work.
As I mentioned earlier, people can get sick from swimming in chemically treated pools.
Basically, there is no place to hide.

As far as (man made) natural pools are concerned, it is important to design a system that produces the highest possible water quality.

For what it's worth, in all my research into these pools, I have not come across one article relating to someone becoming seriously ill or dieing from swimming in said pools.

I've ridden motorcycles for 30+ years. Much more risk to my health than swimming in my pool.

I do appreciate the questions and facts presented by the forum members, as there are very few insightful discussions out there in www. land
I hope to have presented unbiased opinions.

Jeff

Posted Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 @ 11:31:41 pm from IP #
fireflies
Member

I had to check again but water temp above 28deg favour amoeba growth (from WA Health Dept info) (range 13-45deg). I'm not one for over regulation but the situation is that private and public swimming pools are a highly regulated resource. Here in WA there is regular testing of natural water bodies by local authorities measuring for E.coli or other enterococcus indicating faecal contamination as well as testing for the amoeba responsible for causing amoebic meningitis.There have been between 200 and 300 documented cases of amoebic meningitis worldwide since 1965 when it was first identified - the majority from Australia and USA. It is between 95 and 99% fatal.

The risk as I see it is that private untested pools of the natural pool type - if they reach warmer temperatures during summer could easily harbour the parasite without you knowing. Public recreational water sources such as freshwater lakes used for swimming as well as public pools are tested for contamination by the amoeba here in WA. In cooler climates perhaps the risk can be discounted but not in subtropical or temperate areas. The appearance of clear 'clean' water provides no guarantee of safety. Anyways, its best to know of the risks if one is advocating untreated swimming pools.

Posted Wednesday 26 Jun 2013 @ 11:56:15 am from IP #
jeff
Member

There's a lot of information available about amoebic meningitis or 'Naegleria fowleri'

While the bug is certainly real, there needs to be credible testimony applied to the argument.

fireflies is correct regarding the temperature favoured by Naegleria fowleri being from 28c
Naegleria fowleri favours stagnant water, which is not a normal condition for a natural pool.

I think it is safe to say that people swimming in 'less than ideal' water around Australia, would outnumber people swimming in natural swimming pools by many thousands to one.

Chemically treated pools are capable of supporting Naegleria fowleri.
One article I read (WA government)suggested all swimming pools be tested twice a day for correct chemical disinfection.
Who does that?

There will be thousands of chemical swimming pools and toddlers paddling pools around Australia that are not 'safe', because of insufficient disinfection.

While the risk of contracting amoebic meningitis is real, it is also an extremely rare event, and can happen in all pools, dams, thermal pools, spas, rivers etc.

Posted Thursday 27 Jun 2013 @ 8:01:41 am from IP #

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