swimming pools ..are they a good thing in our brave new green world ?

Alternative Technology Assn Forums » General

swimming pools ..are they a good thing in our brave new green world ?

(81 posts) (30 voices)

Started 11 years ago by dave lawrence
Latest reply from jdaley

Tags:

« Previous 123 Next »

jeff
Member

I've also built a natural swimming pool at my home in Albury, nsw.
Over 200,000 litres and using a 460 watt aquaculture pump 24/7 for 7 months of the year.
For the other 5 months the pool pump is turned off. Quite economical really considering the size of the pool.
As cheneychapel says, and external mechanical filter is needed to keep the biofilter from blocking.
A true natural swimming pool uses no chemicals or additives of any description at any time. The water is not sanitised.
Natural swimming pools are the only 'true' non-chemical pool imo.
The cat, dog, kangaroos, and birds drink from my pool, and there are quite a few fish in there too.
Water quality from a natural swimming pool can be most excellent with clear visibility in my pool at over twenty metres (length of pool)
This summer will be the fourth for my pool. I grew up swimming in the beautiful King River in ne Victoria and my pool water is as good, and clearer.
Lucky we have had good rain here this year. I won't feel quite so embarrassed about my pool this summer........
Effective design is critical for a nsp to function at its full potential.
There will no doubt be some dissapointed builders out there building their own systems, but it is absolutely achievable to build a good system...

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/jeffr100rs/ourpool632.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/jeffr100rs/ourpool639.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/jeffr100rs/ourpool577.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/jeffr100rs/ourpool658.jpg

Posted Saturday 23 Oct 2010 @ 11:42:29 am from IP #
swanning_it
Member

Now that's a pool!

NE Victoria! Do you ice skate on it in winter

So how does one convert a normal pool to natural? Are there minimum size requirements? How much space required for the natural filtration? What works best? Who does one contact? Are their natural pool designers out there?

Posted Saturday 23 Oct 2010 @ 8:11:40 pm from IP #
jeff
Member

Some conventional swimming pools are better candidates for conversion than others.
It isn't a cheap thing to do, as it isn't a matter of just buying something and plugging it in.
I have seen some very nice looking conversions and mostly they are nothing like the original pool.
Ideally there needs to be a lot more surface skimming (overflow edge)than is offered by a conventional pool, which may only have 60 cm skimming width with two skimmer boxes.
My pool has approximately 20 lineal metres of overflow skimming out of a 54 metre total circumference. As well as aerating the water, the overflow system keeps the pool water surface very clean.

Overflow edge. http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/jeffr100rs/ourpool356.jpg

Conventional pool sand filters are not used for a natural swimming pool because they eventually 'channel'leaving areas of anaerobic water within the filter which is not wanted.
A much higher power pump is required to operate a conventional sand filter, whereas the filter on my pool is gravity flow, so I am not wasting power 'forcing' water through the filter.

I don't believe there is a minimum size as such for a nsp......
The biofilter (gravel bed) can be within the main pool and does not 'need' to be seperate.

There are not too many people offering nsp's in Australia as yet, however at least two of the major players from Europe have established offices in Aus.
When I designed my pool, I investigated buying components from the European companies but found them not ready to distribute to me in Australia. So I had to design and find everything myself, which has turned out to be the best outcome because I can modify my biofilters, mechanical filters, overflow edges etc to suit a particular pool.

I started building my pool in 2006 with full building approval and permits from Albury council. I wanted to build/design these pools for other people and knew that I would need to show them something.
Most of my work over the last 25 years has been with swimming pool construction, fish ponds and structural landscaping.
My jaw dropped when I first saw a picture of a natural swimming pool in early 2006.
Bingo!
But, the drought here really made me pull my head in for the last three years and wonder what the hell I was doing, and we will have another drought.....but for now there are some good water reserves and I want to pick up from where I left off.:-)

This looks like a good place to learn more about using solar for pumping and lighting needs.

.

Posted Saturday 23 Oct 2010 @ 11:12:46 pm from IP #
swanning_it
Member

We're redoing a fair chunk of our pool. The skimming is not an issue, as we're already puting in a wet deck (deck level water with grate all around......27 lineal metres or there abouts). To use a wet deck, we need a water tank below and within a short distance of the pool, we were planning a water feature, which may be able to change to a filter pool/water feature. All pipework is changing regardless so the modifcations there would be fine........however I've just done some very brief research and it seems the granulate requirements come out out $12000 +, on top of all the other gear. $12k for fine gravel sounds like someone is making a lot of money out of a flash name for conventional product.......or am I wrong.

Posted Sunday 24 Oct 2010 @ 2:26:05 am from IP #
jeff
Member

$12,000 ?? wow.

The type of gravel IS very important..
Some rock types are high in nutrient or can influence the ph of the pool through buffering.
Consistency in any particular size is also very important to ensure equal flow through the biofilter bed.
I used a special order gravel (mainly quartz) from a local supplier. Three sizes were used
I shoveled and barrowed 15 tonnes of it into the biofilter! The quartz gravel holds my ph at an almost constant 7.5
Cost me about $4,000
Many 'things' have been used for biofilter media. Manufactured plastic media costs a fortune in large quantities.
The smaller the media the more bacteria it can host, so less media is needed. But it can block up easily too requiring major cleaning.
I settled on a larger size media and more of it. I don't expect my bio-filter to become blocked any time soon. As long as the water is mechanically filtered before entering the bio-filter pipework.
Natural swimming pools will grow algea. How much is determined by the design of the pool, nutrient levels and shade. The design of the pool also determines whether algae growing on pool walls looks out of place or not. If a pool has many rocks and plants in the water, it looks quite ok, as long as the water is as clear as a bell...or close to it.

Posted Sunday 24 Oct 2010 @ 3:34:02 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

Hey, Jeff, are you the dude with the 100RS outfit on YouTube?

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffr100rs#p/u/10/fr0Zn6kSfR8

Posted Sunday 24 Oct 2010 @ 6:44:05 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Er, em, well I do own an R100RS.
mighty fine motorcycle that.

Posted Sunday 24 Oct 2010 @ 7:00:57 am from IP #
swanning_it
Member

OK...then the on-line calculator I used to assess the required granulate quantities is wrong, or they charge too much for the product. I'm not sure which, so to try and take out the guesswork, can you suggest what I do to attempt to cost a natural pool? The wife fell off the chair when I suggested it may cost $12k over and above the rest of it and I must admit that at that price, I'd probably go tried and conventional over nice idea, but expensive and may not work (ours will be a formal style pool. Algae growing on the walls doesn't sound too flash to me).

Any suggestions?

Posted Sunday 24 Oct 2010 @ 7:16:30 am from IP #
jeff
Member

'Granulate'...sounds like an Aqua Viva system?
When it comes to quantities of media necessary for a biofilter, several factors come into play.
Surface area of the media is what it all comes down to.
Different medias have different surface areas, as in a barrow full of sand will have a far greater total surface area than a barrow of rocks.
I can source a media that will give me more surface area in one barrow load than the entire 15 tonnes in my biofilter. But a media that small is not suited to my applications.
12,000 is a ridiculous price to pay for a brand name media.

I doubt that any of the big name natural swimming pool companies will guarantee an algae free pool.
Algae is an excellent nutrient scrubber (absorber) and will play a big part in natural swimming pools in Australa....I believe.
I think you need to find and view existing nsp's to make an informed decision.
They won't be everyone's cup of tea, but they will be a dream come true for many.

What was I thinking!
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/jeffr100rs/ourpool049.jpg

What a journey.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/jeffr100rs/ourpool575.jpg

Posted Sunday 24 Oct 2010 @ 10:48:18 am from IP #
swanning_it
Member

Yes, it was Aqua Viva. As I said, they have an on-line calculator, which the other few who advertise do not. Here is the outcome of my requirements according to that calculator (Pool size 40.5m2 surface area x average 2m deep)

Size of filtration zone - 8.89m2
Height of substrate layers - 65cm
No. of Diffusers - 2 (@ $161.70 ea)
Granulate large - 43 bags (@ $148.50 ea)
Granulate small - 9 bags (@ $268.40 ea)
Plant granulate - 32 bags (@ $81.40 ea)
Cover granulate - 5 bags (@ $89.10 ea)

Filtration gravel 4/8 - 1.7t (sourced locally and not included in the $12k)
Filtration gravel 16/32 - 4.7t (sourced locally and not included in the $12k)
Water plants - 53 (sourced locally and not included in the $12k)
Flow rate for filter - 3.88m3/hr (Pump not included in the $12k)

I've no idea how big a bag is, but we are in agreeance that those prices seem very high.

They also sell instructional books, but I'm half guessing that they will be taylored to their product, which if it is overpriced, then the books would be largely worthless, if their product is not overpriced, then it's out of my budget.

So having basically discounted them, I'll have a ring around today and see what I can come up with.

Also, a US website I looked at suggested the European designs may not suit the US climate and needed to be upgraded. I note the two systems (that I've seen) sold here are both Euro based, so I wonder if they need to be upgraded to suit the Australian climate too?

Posted Sunday 24 Oct 2010 @ 7:53:36 pm from IP #
jeff
Member

Keep it complicated!

There are all sorts of possibilities for a biofilter design. The 'particulates' may also be used in mechanical filtering as well as biological filtering.
Ask a pet shop about gravels for fish tanks and they will recommend the same principles as for natural swimming pools.
Plastic medias do the same as gravel. They provide a surface for bacteria to colonize.
I found plastic or other man made media way expensive.
Most plastic media are inert. They won't effect water ph or alkalinity. And they contain no nutrient.
You want a gravel with the same qualities ideally. The gravel would have to come from a quarry with appropriate machinery to deliver a consistently sized, and clean product.
Start with local quarries, you may strike it lucky.

Designing for different climates is very important. In colder Europe a pool may have wide shallow areas (6"-12") of water to benefit from the suns solar heating. That would be totally unsuitable for my climate. I can have summer temps up to 43C.
Each nsp has to be custom designed to its environment. There can be a lot of considerations.

Michael Littlewood has 3 good books on natural swimming pools. You could google him.
I managed to get my pool in one of his books 'a guide to building' (but I receive no benefit from this other than to have my contact details in the book)
I've seen hundreds of pictures of natural swimming pools mainly from Europe, many of them are absolutely beautiful.

Posted Monday 25 Oct 2010 @ 6:38:51 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

@ Jeff

Good onyer, mate, nothing wrong with an old Beemer. Used to own a 100S with R fairing and Krauser boxes.

My brother lives near me on the mid-north coast and I'm trying to convince him and his wife to "go natural". He rides a Ducati, but don't hold it against him!

Got any suggestions as to what info I could download for him, books to read, that kind of thing? Any stuff produced by plumbers anywhere that you've found?

My email is buz_zook (at) hotmail (dot) com if you'd rather not make such stuff too public.

Posted Tuesday 26 Oct 2010 @ 5:34:54 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Mid north coast 'eh? just where I would like to end up.
Googling 'natural swimming pools' and 'swimming ponds' will give you heaps of imformation and pictures.
I know of only two people that sell a book or a pdf on these pools.
I think there will only be one type of person who wants a pool like these. The one who says when they see it, "YES"
People who say "Ooohyuck, swimming with fish!!!! probably won't like it.
But you don't need fish for the system to work.

I don't think many plumbers have heard of natural swimming pools.

Posted Tuesday 26 Oct 2010 @ 9:22:33 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

No worries, I've done a bit of googling and found those already.

Next time you're heading up this way on two wheels, maybe to do the Oxley???? Let me know as there are beds a-plenty.

Can't see why people object to swimming with fish - most of them as do go to the beach. What's the diff?

Me? As the old adage states: the day I see a shark strolling down the High St is the day I start swimming in the ocean! LOL!!!

Posted Wednesday 27 Oct 2010 @ 7:10:07 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Thanks for the hospitality Buzzman, Here's a pic of my RS

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/jeffr100rs/silverton07017.jpg

I should reply to the original question asked in this thread about the viability of swimming pools in today and tomorrows Australia .
I would say that it totally depends on where one lives and their particular water circumstances.
Last summer I was wondering if my pool might end up as a vegetable garden again, such was(will be again) the water situation here in Albury.
However this spring my dams and tanks are full so the pool lives on....
At least this type of pool doesn't get backwashed, and when rain fills and over flows the pool, the water goes into a dam next to the pool.
I need to look at solar power options more closely to maximise the 'greenness' of these pools.
My pool has created and is sustaining an eco system which offsets the evaporation to a degree.

Posted Friday 29 Oct 2010 @ 12:54:05 pm from IP #
dave lawrence
Member

agreed, occasionally forum posters revisit the original question posed .makes it much easier when we stick to topic .i am as guilty as the next person of veering off track .
interesting to see the photo posted with HYPER ARID background .
says it all really about viability of using potable water NOT collected by pool owners pools in Australia. But of course nothing is black and white , or should it be WET & DRY ?

pools can if correctly designed /built /used /maintained be very MULTI functional and aid in fire control/climate control/ habitat creation and recreation etc .
One last comment I will make is that even though organic shaped pols may be aesthetically pleasing they are difficult to provide covers for .
Having said that, jeffs pool looks to be a wonderful example of a natural pool.

Posted Saturday 30 Oct 2010 @ 12:30:06 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

Ahhh. Nostalgia. The pic of the RS reminds me so much of my old steed - even to the Krauser boxes!

All I've got left is the matching top box and rack, alas.

And after my cousin was killed in a bike accident two years ago, I'm not sure that I'll be going there again.
It's never the speed that kills, it's only the sudden stop you have to worry about!

Picks of pool very good too! Suspect rainwater tanks and solar panels need to be coupled with "natural" pool for the concept to be justifiable on a resources based equation.

All that concrete and water just sitting there unused for most of the year does seem somehow a bit wasteful.

Posted Sunday 31 Oct 2010 @ 6:32:36 am from IP #
jeff
Member

I don't have a top box for my RS hmmmmm.
Generally I pile on 10 times what would fit into a top box anyway, but it would look rather flash out there in the outback with a top box wouldn't it.

I am preparing to design a natural swimming pool using stand alone solar power. My first thoughts are, is it better to use inverted 240 volts or choose from an array of 12 volt pumps...

We can use the pool for about 6 months of the year and the concrete is not too much. It doesn't extend past 450mm below the water surface
The pool has a rubber liner.

Posted Sunday 31 Oct 2010 @ 9:36:47 am from IP #
LaSource
Member

In Darwin we could not live without a pool and I expect it saved cost and energy because it provided the heat relief we needed without using an Air Con. On the NSW Central Coast it did the same for heat relief and especially for the kids but it did cost allot in energy given it's shorter usable season. My life style is different now and I plan to make a rural dam into a natural pond to support diversity and If I want to swim (rather than dip the toes in) it will be in nature or a community pool.

What concerns me most about pools is how people build them, fill them in, run them for shallow ill considered reasons and sometimes only for "Water views". The total cost of pools to the environment would likely be best reduced substantially simply by a little less overt consumerism, some new technologies and avoiding there neglect.

Posted Monday 1 Nov 2010 @ 7:41:09 am from IP #
jeff
Member

I'm keen to design a pool where stand alone solar power is the only option. If I were to run a 12 volt, 2-300 watt water pump for 24/7 what size solar set up would I need?

BTW, my floating swimming pool lettuces seedlings appear to be quite happy after a week in the pool.

Posted Saturday 6 Nov 2010 @ 11:07:03 pm from IP #
Buzzman
Member

Jeff
Why would you need to run the pump 24/7? Why not only run it during daylight hours, like most people do with 'normal' pools anyway?

And you'd need batteries to store energy generated and to minimise fluctuations in current due to clouds, shade, incidence etc.

Might end up being cheaper to run it off grid power (if available).

But lets suppose a 300W pump running 10hrs per day = 3.0kWh

Using the 'rule of 5' that equates to approx a 0.6kW array, or say a 1.0kW solar PV system, to be safe. Plus the batteries to store the current generated etc etc.

3000Wh needs approx 200Ah storage at 12V for a single day. To provide guaranteed current for a couple of days you'd need a 2.0kW array and at least 2 X 200Ah deep cycle batteries, although, given it's best not to over discharge them, this probably means you'd really need 3 or 4 200Ah D-C batteries.

So approx $3K for the panels and install and another $1K for the batteries and install.

It's starting to look expensive.

That's assuming my figures and assumptions are correct - but I'm a builder, not an electrician!! LOL!!

Posted Sunday 7 Nov 2010 @ 4:40:29 am from IP #
jeff
Member

Thanks Buzzman, some good information for me to digest.

The pump needs to run 24/7 to give a constant circulation of water.
As the pool water circulates, it also (ideally) oxygenates, ensuring a constant supply of oxygenated water to the bacteria living in the bio-filter. The bacteria are aerobic, meaning they need oxygenated water to survive. Certain bacteria play a huge roll in natural swimming pools in converting ammonium to nitrate, a plant food.

Through the cooler 5 months of the year, I turn the pump off.

Posted Sunday 7 Nov 2010 @ 9:29:51 am from IP #
Poly
Member

If people have swimming pools, they are, in theory, less likely to drive the car to the beach regularly. Therefore saving emissions. And as LaSource pointed out, they would also save emissions on air conditioning their home, in theory. Another cool point is that firefighters can use pools as a source of water in emergencies. We have solar powered water heating so we can use the pool for more months of the year and absolutely love a beer or wine while floating around. I recommend using polycarbonate drinking glasses to avoid broken glass in the pool area. Usually they are sold to bars and clubs.

Posted Tuesday 4 Jan 2011 @ 6:22:02 am from IP #
termite
Member

Sure, that was a blatant plug...
...but timely! I just heard of a pool party at a swish Sydney unit block. Yes, someone broke a glass. The pool needed to be emptied. Ouch!

Posted Tuesday 4 Jan 2011 @ 7:08:33 am from IP #
dave lawrence
Member

would you like pseudoestrogens with your drink ?

Posted Tuesday 4 Jan 2011 @ 7:44:32 am from IP #
Summer
Member

Hey Jeff,
Just trying to track you down.
would really like to view your pool and see these working in real life, I am in the process of designing one and since you and I live in Albury, you sound like someone that could mentor me a little and show me the ropes if you are able, and who knows, all going well you might just get a job out of it.
If you would be so kind to contact throught my email ruggicat@hotmail.com

Posted Wednesday 5 Jan 2011 @ 11:43:23 am from IP #
marie
Member

Hi,

Has anyone got a natural pool they're happy for me to see in Melbourne? I am trying to understand what cons there might be to natural pools -I have read all about the pros!-? Can you make it look like a conventional pool, to the point that the average person wouldn't really know what type of pool it is, or is it going to look greenish, thanks to algae, fairly quickly?
Do you need much maintenance, testing?
Cheers

Posted Monday 17 Jan 2011 @ 8:02:58 am from IP #
alnich
Member

Bingo, I've found like minded people!I have been researching "natural bio-filtered swimming pools" on and off for about 3 years. I am about to install fresh water pool with a bio-filter system so I thought I might run my research / ideas past you people.
Here go's
1st for passive bio-filtration of a pool( plants/ gravel around the edge of a pool / water not forcibly pump through the filtration median) the swimming ratio is 20% swimming to 80% filtration. AS for "forced filtration" IE water is pumped through the filtration median you have a 80% swimming area to 20% filtration area. The pool we have chosen is a 28000 liter fiberglass pool so at a minimum I will reguire approximately 6 m^3 of filtration, I'm going for around 8 m^3 to cover possible errors.

2nd, I live in Rockhampton QLD, so our summer temps are fairly high leading to high water temps in pools. From my research 28C is the critical water temperature for the growth of algae, so I am installing an underground Geo-thermal cooling loop (copper or Stainless steel pipe) of approximately 60m to allow for cooling of the pool water to prevent the 28C mark from being reached. I will be using a digital cold room thermostat to activate electronic valves cut in at 26/27C cut out at 23/24C? or in that vicinity.

3rd I read that some of you are thinking of using "alternative" ways to pump the water in your pools systems. I am hoping to be able to use solar mirror trough heated Stirling fluidine pumps during the day. My understanding is that you have to pass approximately 2 pool volumes through the filter system per 24 hrs, in my case 56,000 liters. The flow rate velocity in the bio-filter has to be high high enough to allow filtration but not high enough to wash the bacteria away. I plan to put 2,500 liters /hr through the system with a velocity from memory of 2.5 mm per second through the filter medium.

4th I noted you have, as I have done, that some companies are charging exorbitant prices for filter material, which by the way is Zeolite. I think its being imported from overseas which is possibly adding to the cost?
My Zeolite will be coming from a quarry west of Emerald QLD that has been or is "off the Radar" so to speak. From the testing that they have had done it is equal to most other Zeolite sources world wide. Apparently the majority of Australian Zeolite is harder that its overseas counterparts and therefore possibly and I stress "possibly" not as effective in a bio-filtration system. The Emerald Zeolite is apparently an exception to this.

Any ideas or feedback on my theories/ ideas will be appreciated
I will post more info in due course.
Regards
Alan Nich

Posted Tuesday 15 Feb 2011 @ 3:51:51 am from IP #
pokka
Member

I am also very interested in the natural swimming pool. I have for years had a concept of a pool with plant beds on one side of a walk bridge and a swimming area on the other side. I assumed I would need to have the systems completely separate due to either the chlorine or salt. Having spent the last few weeks looking at the np options, I am in awe. However, I note most are in cooler climates than mine (North West, NSW) and I am wondering if there is anyone out there that has such a pool in a warmer climate? pros/cons, problems etc?
Thank you

Posted Sunday 27 Feb 2011 @ 9:52:15 am from IP #
gregorr3
Member

Some of you might be interested in our experience with fresh water pools/ponds.
After much research my wife and I have almost completed a 100,000 litre pool and pond in June 2011. Largely based on latest koi technology. Filtration bead filter and pond for bio filtration.

We are just experiencing are first summer and all is good at last- crystal clear water and we are swimming almost every day. Everyone comments on the water quality. A big factor in achieving this result is by using an opaque pool cover. A pool cover is required by council and reduces evaporation, heat loss and controls water borne algae.

However there is still some growth on the walls and bottom. It's been very low
maintenance overall. Ph has remained stable at 7.4. It's certainly been a very big experiment and long....journey and I didn't even want a pool- now I'm the biggest user loving it!

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o636/gregorr3/1-DSC_0082.jpg
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o636/gregorr3/1-DSC_0004.jpg
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o636/gregorr3/DSC_0002.jpg
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o636/gregorr3/DSC_0006.jpg

Greg

Posted Monday 20 Feb 2012 @ 11:57:10 am from IP #

RSS feed for this topic

« Previous 123 Next »