This comment from an electric car under test site is supportive of electric bikes.
Quote "If you want efficient urban transport, get yourself a bicycle. In fact an electric bike is more efficient than a human powered one when the costs of producing the extra food you burn off is taken into account."
dymonite69
Member
Interesting. It has been quoted that a bicycle is 3x more efficient at transport than walking anyway e.g. converting chemical energy into actual work. Walking is only about 30% efficient. I gather that electric motors can be up to 90%.
But then you do have to factor in the embodied energy in building the motor and obtaining its energy source.
You probably also have to include a lot of external factors that result from ebikes. For example increased productivity and or leisure time due to less time used to travel to work, no need for a shower on arrival at work, less parking spaces required etc. I think on balance it is going to fall in favour of ebikes when everything is taken into account.
I just discovered this quite good you tube channel on electric cars. It has quite good production and is obviously intended for the masses and I think makes good viewing.
Buzzman
Member
Some of the reasons why a VFT has not yet gone ahead in Australia are contained here:
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/bp/1997-98/98bp16.htm
But essentially the problem is cost and lack of sufficient patronage to enable RoI.
For example, the Taiwan High Speed Rail, which is 75% elevated over its 360km length, cost US$18b and was completed only in 2006. My head can't cope with the maths, but that's roughly $50 billion to complete an elevated 900km HSR Sydney - Melbourne.
To put that into perspective, the Alice-Darwin rail link completed a few years ago cost AUS$1.1 billion for a conventional ballasted track stretching 1400km.
http://www.leighton.com.au/about_us/projects/alice_springs_-_darwin_railway.html
dymonite69
Member
More importantly Taiwan has a population of Australia squashed into an area half the size of Tasmania. The passenger volumes make it far more profitable to run.
A Paris to Berlin run is shorter than Sydney to Melboune whilst spanning three separate countries. European Intercity trains are busier than most of the lines here in Adelaide.
alfresco24
Member
Cant realy compare Taiwan as it has so little stable flat land on the route that costs would have been sky high. The Melb-Syd line would be a breeze in comparison.
Building these VFT's is a good idea provided they're fully electrified.
Buzzman
Member
dymo
Totally correct. Passenger volumes are the issue.
While working in the industry a few years back I and afew colleagues, over a few Scotches (as you do), worked out that - like European HSR - similar projects in Oz would only work if they were "air alternative" (ie: an alternative to air travel in both time and or cost).
We calculated that travel Sydney to Melbourne, using latest tech 350km/h HSR, would be approx. 3.5hrs Sydney Central to Southern Cross Melbourne, including stops at Macarthur, Canberra and Albury.
This might sound like a lot, but when you consider that it would take 45mins to get from CBD to Mascot Domestic, min 45mins prior to departure, with flight time and 'wheels down' of 1hr 15mins, plus the 45min drive from Tullamarine to Melbourne CBD means "air travel" is currently approx. 3.5 hrs door-to-door.
Even if you could do the last minute run-on with only a briefcase (which most don't allow anyway) it would still be a minimum of 2hrs 45 door to door, and that with lots of frantic rushing about.
So the idea has merit from a practical perspective.
But as business people mostly fly late-booked economy (ie: most "business travel" is not the CEO up in 1st Class, it's the workers back in cattle class) at prices around the $250-450 mark, the question goes begging as to whether HSR could capture enough of the air shuttle market to make a quid.
Brisbane time slots are much the same, but with a shorter time to CBD from Airport and a longer track distance, the time factor doesn't stack up quite as well. Nor, I suspect, would the volumes.
As the XPT takes around 11 hours for the journey at present, this would be a considerable time saving, but would be around 2 to 3 times the cost.
In Europe, HSR has taken over about 20% of total travel along shared corridors. Thi is set to increase as jet fuel (and fares) rise, as the HSR is mostly electric.
Maybe this idea from the UK will help things along. Tim Yeo, who chairs the Commons Energy and Climate Change Select Committee, on Sunday called for drivers to be charged based on emissions and time of travel to promote green vehicle choices and cut peak time congestion.
termite
Member
This is getting to be a little off-topic - but the rail cost comments above have reminded me of some comments/a query of my own:
In May, I was delighted to travel on the Eurostar from London to Paris, total cost $245.05. Time taken: 135 minutes.
Knocks the socks off flying: relaxed, roomy, smooth and quiet.
Over a month I did a refresher on the user's side of European rail travel. What interested me was that Berlin purportedly has a population of just 3.2 million (Vs about 4.0 and 3.9 for Sydney and Melbourne), but quite an extensive, workable and reasonably-priced public transport system. I've been trying to compare the relative population densities Vs public transport coverage with Sydney, but figures I've seen on the web don't seem to give me the information I need.
I want to know the population density in the area covered by Berlin's S-Bahn, U-Bahn and trams.
I just want ammunition for whomever says our population density won't justify better public transport.
dymonite69
Member
Intercity or intra-city?
Swinburne University of Technology has some good articles, one of which is on EV innovation and collaboration with other Australian universities on getting EV's rolling.
Lot's of other good articles on sustainable topics.
Thank you so much for your ideas...
[url=http://www.vanmanmelbourne.com.au]Commercial Vans[/url]
termite
Member
Intra-city. Berlin has an enormous network of trains and trams to get you around the city. The people are very social; they take their dogs on the trains during the day, then they go home, get dressed up and go on the town at night - getting there by train, of course.
dymonite69
Member
The population of the capital cities only account for 60% of the total. Once you consider the top 50 most populous centres, there is still 15% of the people (1 in 6) not accounted for.
dymonite69
Member
Won't we be running our intercity trains by electricity in the future?
The long awaited Chevrolet Volt has finally been released. It is one of 5 new electric cars to be released. It is still a hybrid of sorts though as it has an onboard 'gas' engine to extend the range.
An Australian version is proposed for 2012.
Buzzman
Member
Or, there's this one...
http://www.codaautomotive.com/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGWZCxauZ3c
Or this Aussie one, which has also been done to an MX-5, article in Earth Garden...
http://bev.com.au/
Or there's this local SA one....
http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?page_id=17
Or there's a few hopefuls out there...
http://www.evpower.com.au/
And loads more vids on all KINDS of EVs on here. Some very interesting. I particulalry liked the drag bike and drag car. Fastest electric vehicle. Faster than lots of ICE vehicles too!! Ironic isn't it?
Or, for something completely different, how about these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMh0NChh5is&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfL18FoBB5c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=electric+vehicle&aq=f
termite
Member
Getting around the battery storage capacity limit - the Chevrolet Volt:
http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/an-electric-car-that-uses-petrol-20101126-189w8.html
Buzzman
Member
I'm not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but for those not on Michael Jakoms emailing list, there is a biggish EV 'expo' in Melbourne Sunday fortnight.....
...more details on ATA website here: http://www.ata.org.au/news/12-december-melbourne-ata-branches-main-and-ev-christmas-breakup/
The Future of Transport - An Electric Vehicle Rally Christmas breakup for ATA Melbourne Branch and Melbourne Electric Vehicle Interest Group
When: Sunday 12 December
Time: 10:30am to approx 4pm
Where: Victoria University (Werribee East campus), Hoppers Lane, Werribee (Melways 206 J6)
Cost: There is no charge for this event and attendance is open to all.
Buzzman
Member
Forgot to mention the latest EV which broke ground today in the Age and SMH
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/new-10000-electric-car-on-a-charge-20101126-18aqn.html
Pug ugly, but hey, it's a start, and promises that EVs will one day be cheaper than ICE vehicles.
Today's Financial Review has a 3 page article on battery technology and EV's. Engineer Wan Gang was appointed the Chinese Minister of Science and Technology with a directive to produce 500,000 EV's over the next 2 years. 30 manufacturers are already in the construction phase of producing this outcome.
BYD China already has a fleet of electric taxi's in Beijing and is expected to be the world's largest producer with Sth Korea and Japan close behind as the US struggles to catch up. The US have pumped $US167billion into the Energy Dept to provide grants for EV and battery development.
Well worth the price of the paper for this article alone.
GBD
Member
Interesting video on the Nissan Leaf manufacture process.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30hk3WKpRA8
Was talking to a friend about this the other day. They have plans to do battery swaps within 3 mins as recharge stations - ie refuel.
re the High Speed Train to Melb
IMO the real killer is the lack of how many HSR's per day.
If you miss a plane there is another one in an hour or so - miss a train and it's normally a lot longer wait - hence as a business mode has less appeal.
I used to use the HSR's for business trips and due to volumes of people and regular services it wasn't an issue - miss the train and it was a 3 or 4 hour wait until another - but in OZ I just can't see the numbers stacking up until the costs of flights drive the alternatives ahead in terms of well utilised modes of transport.
Buzzman
Member
Think you've hit the nail on the head there GBD - unitl the cost of flying makes the alternatives stack up better.
It's clear form the EU experience that HSR works best where it is able to offer a "cost / time" similarity to air travel, because the convenience and extra space makes the train more attractive.
At present there is only a single intercity service in each direction from each of the major eastern capitals (eg: Sydney-Melb, Melb-Sydney twice daily) and this is largely becaue A) it takes 15 hours and B) ther isn't the patronage for more services.
But if it took 3hrs door to door (Central to Southern Cross) this stacks up well agains the air service.
So once the air service is a bit more expensive, then HSR will begin to look more attractive. Club lounges, bars, sleepers, dining car - if all inclusive - would then make the train FAR more attractive as a form of transport.
And with fast mobile Wifi so that people could access the net and email and work on the way.....well, makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?
I think this 'speed' issue is the problem, not the solution. With the space and comfort possible with a train there are good reasons to make 'slow' travel a more sensible solution. And with wifi as you say you can still run the office or business etc while in transit.
I fail to see why speed is necessary because with decent broadband you can teleconference from anywhere in minutes making urgent meetings possible on the fly. It's time to start properly evaluating the need for constant interstate and international travel now we have better communication alternatives at our finger tips.
And until everyone has that fast communications you could set up video meeting venues in all major towns to hire to people who need these services.
And EV's are a good example of the right tool for the job in cities. Average traffic speed of around 16kmh in our capital cities mean that fast fuel burning cars idling in traffic aren't necessary either.
After a successful launch of their bicycle sharing scheme the French are launching Autolib, an electric vehicle sharing scheme for Paris.
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/aug2009/gb2009087_330677.htm
