Hey I just thought I'd share this - if anyone is interested. I'm just recently back from China, researching Grid Connect Solar PV with energy storage. Here is the (still in progress) journal that covers the findings themselves, and other trials & tribulations of traveling through China for the first time.
Grid Connect Solar PV with energy storage - Reasearch trip to China. Oct 2012
(25 posts) (9 voices)-
PeterReefman
MemberPosted Monday 5 Nov 2012 @ 2:28:11 pm from IP # -
alfresco24
MemberWhat a hoot. Can't wait for the movie version.
There's an Australian company (ZEN) releasing a claimed 20kWh capacity system for $30k early next year. How does that stack up with what you've seen?Posted Monday 5 Nov 2012 @ 8:06:47 pm from IP # -
PeterReefman
MemberThanks all. AF24 yep the ZEN gear is very good and I think they're a great company. They've been pivotal in the huge number of installations at Port Lincoln, SA.
But I strongly feel that the Australian market is not there for a $30k 5kW system, even with energy storage. My own experience through running community solar projects and now doing it on a payroll has told me again and again that our domestic market is only there if payback times can be under 10 years. 7 is the magic number as far as I'm concerned.
So with a $30k 5kW system, the problem is that even with perfect design and energy management, financing costs will swallow up virtually all benefit and blow out that payback term to well over 10 years (in fact, over 20 years). Show stopper for our market.
Frankly the cost needs to be halved, and the system needs to be perfectly designed for each house. Yes it's a tough ask - far harder than we're used to in Australia, but if want to keep seeing PV spreading across our suburbs then there's no choice (unless we only install tiny tiny systems that stay behind the meter).
So compared to what I saw in China? They're desperate to keep Australia going because of the US and EU lock-outs. I think "it" can be done. And "it" is a high quality 5kW + 20kWh system for $15k - $20k.
If we as an industry can't do that, then the only companies selling domestic systems will be the ones prepared to distort the truth for the sake of sales, and that's bad for everyone - and for renewable energy.
By the way some of the above that I'm sharing may be ordinarily considered commercially confidential. But I don't mind openly talking about it. We need lots of companies taking this on and letting competition drive prices to where they need to be, so that solar across the whole country (er, and World) keeps its momentum up.
Posted Tuesday 6 Nov 2012 @ 1:41:34 am from IP # -
The Qld govt are upping the ante with threats to introduce high daily grid access and make daily tariff slightly cheaper. Basically it is to negate the effects of the generous FIT and people bragging about getting cheques isn't helping. High energy users will get cheaper power and low energy users will pay much more.
So the incentive to go off grid is rising rapidly and I couldn't agree more that this market is about to boom. Combined with energy efficiency small systems like you propose are going to do this job easily. It is easier than it looks at first but your China trip shows how capable and motivated they are.
Posted Tuesday 6 Nov 2012 @ 2:03:41 am from IP # -
PeterReefman
MemberYeah Rockabye the assault is certainly on. I'm sure you remember back when the first state FiT was announced - the SA 44c scheme. The rise and fall of support for FiTs across the country reminds me very much of the Ghandi quote:
First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you winWe are clearly in the third stage right now, and the great news is that now that there are over 860,000 Australian houses with PV with voters in every single one, the door to retrospectively remove subsidies has closed I believe.
But the three things we still need to be ready to stand up against in this fight are:
* Inequity in service charges (some are lobbying to vastly increase service charges for PV households)
* Mandatory gross metering
* Removal of the right to disconnect from the gridIf these three things get through it will stop solar dead. And we need to make sure that doesn't happen, while keeping new solar viable as well through energy storage, etc.
Posted Tuesday 6 Nov 2012 @ 5:14:25 am from IP # -
The solar wheel isn't going to stop, it is long term, unlike these people only have 3 - 5 year terms, they will bow to public and legal pressure.
As for dot point 3 electricity is similar to the phone connection. Unlike water and sewerage, you don't need a fixed physical connection to it for health and safety reasons. Phones and internet can be wireless and energy from the sun is also wireless.
Posted Tuesday 6 Nov 2012 @ 5:31:32 am from IP # -
PeterReefman
MemberYep I hope you're 100% right RB.
Here's Day 6 - http://www.energised.com.au/page.asp?id=62
Posted Tuesday 6 Nov 2012 @ 10:58:54 am from IP # -
PeterReefman
MemberAnother update - Here's Day 10, the day I visited the factory where the company I work for gets its panels. - http://www.energised.com.au/page.asp?id=66
Posted Saturday 10 Nov 2012 @ 4:50:16 am from IP # -
PeterReefman
Memberhttp://www.energised.com.au/page.asp?id=70 Okay my last day in China looking at Solar PV with Energy Storage, with reflections. I was sad to leave, but inspired!
Posted Monday 12 Nov 2012 @ 1:55:11 pm from IP # -
PeterReefman
MemberHi Buzzman
Yes unfortunately the internet went down last Thursday due to a fire in our region (Southwest Victoria), and the only connections available are mobile. Webservers will be down awhile yet apparently, unfortunately... It's causing at least $2.5 million a day in lost productivity and sales across the region, and investigations have already started, and have (already) found that Telsra had no plan in place whatsoever. We all just need to wait...
Posted Thursday 29 Nov 2012 @ 8:08:58 am from IP # -
PeterReefman
MemberBack up now, at last. Cheers, Peter
Posted Friday 30 Nov 2012 @ 11:27:38 am from IP # -
Paul.Graham
MemberHi Peter,
For a 5kW 20kWh system targeted at $18k, what do you think the rough component costs should be in $ or % terms: panels, inverter(s), batteries ...
And what are they roughly now?
Posted Thursday 31 Jan 2013 @ 12:30:33 am from IP # -
PeterReefman
MemberHi Paul - It currently looks like it's an approximate 50-50 split in component costs between (an adequate amount of) batteries; and all of the rest of the hardware that make up a system.
And then of course the installation/administration costs are another factor; as are the STCs.
Harry - I honestly have no idea why you would post that. Are you trying to discredit me because six or seven years ago I said that I supported Australian renewable energy companies? I still do, by the way. And yes, my judgement has improved. I no longer engage with deniers and/or trolls.
Posted Thursday 31 Jan 2013 @ 8:07:22 am from IP # -
Harry Stottle
MemberI support Australian and other renewable energy companies too.
But not all of them.
http://solarsystems.com.au/test/history/
$400M well spent?http://web.archive.org/web/20010801000000*/http://www.solarsystems.com.au
10 years of "coming real soon"
Where did all the money go?Posted Thursday 31 Jan 2013 @ 8:51:47 am from IP # -
PeterReefman
Memberahhh okay. And yes there will always be failures. If we judged ANY industry by it's failures then nothing would ever happen.
Of course we could also bring up Solyndra as well. But the big picture is that the clean energy industry as a whole can only succeed. It HAS to.
Posted Thursday 31 Jan 2013 @ 11:43:12 am from IP # -
Harry Stottle
MemberPeter, I think China is more likely to succeed in renewable breakthroughs than American and Australian companies.
China has not adopted unfettered capitalism and deals (very) harshly with corrupt company officials.
They actually produce products that work, sell them in volume and make a profit by doing that.Compare that to Solyndra, Solar Systems of Australia and other spectacular failures.
Was it really necessary for those companies to waste so much time and money to prove that the idea was no good?Posted Thursday 31 Jan 2013 @ 10:17:22 pm from IP # -
johnmath
MemberWhat does fairyfloss and grid connected energy storage have in common?
http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Flywheels-fail-at-energy-project-2227225.php
Posted Friday 1 Feb 2013 @ 2:20:08 am from IP # -
Harry Stottle
MemberQ: What do Beacon Power and Solydra have in common?
The first flywheel failed July 27 -- two weeks after the plant's well-attended grand opening -- and the other on Oct. 13, Beacon spokesman Gene Hunt said Wednesday.
Touted by President Barack Obama's administration on a list of federal stimulus projects changing the country, the Beacon plant has 200 of the 7-foot-tall, 3,000-pound flywheels, which each spin up to 16,000 times a minute and float suspended in a buried air-free magnetic chamber to reduce friction.
A: Dumb governments
Posted Friday 1 Feb 2013 @ 4:02:31 am from IP # -
alfresco24
MemberHarry, it depends on whether you're a glass half-full or half-empty person. Show me something new & innovative that's 100% perfect. I don't think it exists, and who cares anyway.
As for the Chinese approach you describe, it avoids accepting some of the underlying gaps and costs that exist over there. No social welfare, subsistence wages, virtually no OHS and pathetically low environmental standards, billions spent building cities that no-one lives in, controlling their currency, stealing IP and technology etc etc It's no wonder they're cheap. But no point going on about it, it is what it is and we all know it.Back to this thread.
I read the CEC report on energy storage and took from it their expectation that energy storage costs about $800/kW and is likely to fall to $500/kW by 2015 (or sooner).
That surprises me a little as I haven't seen any small size (<20kWh) storage systems being marketed at that kind of low price yet. Have any of you?
I also have trouble accepting numbers that don't talk about total cost of system and life of system costs.
Is there a system I can buy and bolt on to the side of my home to store and manage 5kWh, 10kWh, 15kWh etc?Posted Friday 1 Feb 2013 @ 6:42:01 am from IP # -
Looks like Germany has started the ball rolling with subsidies for battery storage on PV grid systems.
"In presenting this news, the European Photovoltaic Industry Association (EPIA) referenced a new study by Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE (Freiburg, Germany) which shows that with battery storage, peaks in electricity production can be reduced up to 40% and grid hosting capacity can be increased by 66%, without the need for additional grid expansion."
Posted Wednesday 27 Feb 2013 @ 10:13:41 am from IP #
