Interesting, but: "ESL technology creates the same light quality as an incandescent but is up to 70% more energy efficient, lasting up to 5 times longer than incandescent". In other words, they last 5000-10,000 hours and run at around 50 lumens per watt at best. LEDs are way past those specs already...
LED Lighting
(136 posts) (40 voices)-
alfresco24
MemberWhat are the TYPICAL and BEST lumens output per watt? for 'standard warm/cold white'
- Incandescent globe
- Halogen (standard) globe
- Halogen (downlight) globe
- CFL globe
- Fluorescent tube
- LED globePosted Saturday 29 Jan 2011 @ 7:47:00 am from IP # -
Greg
MemberHmm , interesting information about LED's and their ECO credentials.
"We find the low-intensity red LEDs exhibit significant cancer and noncancer potentials due to the high content of arsenic and lead," the team wrote in the January 2011 issue of Environmental Science & Technology..."
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02-products-billed-eco-friendly-toxic-metals.html
Posted Tuesday 15 Feb 2011 @ 6:10:06 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterIt's not clear if the were testing LEDs themselves or LED bulbs of some sort, but it sounds like the latter as you can't break a LED in general use. LEDs are basically just a tiny piece of semiconductor encapsulated in epoxy, so there's no way in general use that the end user has access to those materials, and the amount of arsenic etc in such a tiny chip (usually around 0.25 to 0.5mm square) is very small. There is no lead in the semiconductor itself, the only place you would find lead is in the solder etc of a value added end user product like a string of LED based bulbs, or a domestic lightbulb using LEDs, and then, you will only find it in a bulb from a non-RoHS factory.
So, I suspect they bought a cheap and nasty wallmart LED bulb or whatever and ground it up. Not exactly the way the average user will use one of these things, although if it thrown away there is potential for the nasties to be released. But really it's up to the manufacturers to simply not use these materials outside of the semiconductor itself.
Posted Tuesday 15 Feb 2011 @ 10:29:18 pm from IP # -
hamish05
Memberalfresco24
Member asked....
What are the TYPICAL and BEST lumens output per watt? for 'standard warm/cold white'
- Incandescent globe
- Halogen (standard) globe
- Halogen (downlight) globe
- CFL globe
- Fluorescent tube
- LED globeThe answer to alfresco24's question would be very helpfull. It can be so confusing when numbers are quoted in posts to actually know what's what.
Posted Wednesday 16 Feb 2011 @ 12:18:55 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterDepends if you are talking bare LEDs or LED bulbs, The former, the best are currently the Cree XM-L in cold white, over 160 lumens per watt. For warm white it's their XP-G, over 100 lumens per watt. Both of these figures are at 350mA, or around one watt per LED, but they can handle more currnet. The XM-L handles up to 3 amps (10 watts) and produces 100 L/W at this level, while the XP-G can handle 1.5A or around 5 watts.
Typical figures are something else, the average seems to be be around 70L/W for cool and 60L/W for warm, this is for new devices of course. Even the average chinese LED is up in this range now.
Typical figures for others are:
Incandescent: 15L/W
Halogen: 20-22L/W
CFL: 50L/W (have seen them over 65, but most are lower, especially smaller sizes)
Fluoro tube: up to 110L/W (for the best T5, probably around 70-80 for the average tube)
LED globe: 50-60L/W typical, up to 100L/W for the best, but higher L/W usually means lower CRI. The figures for LEDs are revised constantly as they are ever evolving devices, unlike the others, which have pretty much reached their efficacy limits.Posted Wednesday 16 Feb 2011 @ 12:37:47 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterA bit more on that study, seems it was very limited in scope (they tested 9 LEDs, one of each colour) and is very flawed to the point that it's meaningless, which is what I expected. Pity the stupid mainstream media don't have enough knowledge to have realised this, I expect they just republished the media release without reading or understanding th study, in other words, business as usual...
See http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/8/2/13?cmpid=EnlLEDsFebruary162011Posted Wednesday 16 Feb 2011 @ 9:33:28 pm from IP # -
manu66
MemberI'm keen to replace my halogens with LEDs but as yet haven't found a good equivalent.
I have a modern house so want to stick with the downlight format and really don't want to cut more holes in my ceiling, so the output of the LEDs has got to be very close to the existing halogens. Same with the colour.. has to be warm white or they won't stand the stringent 'better half' test.
Should I be aiming for 240v LEDs to avoid the transformer losses of 12v? (Ultimately I want solar on my roof to power everything)
I don't mind spending some money on this but really want value and quality. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 1:52:37 am from IP # -
canyoner
MemberHi manu66, et al,
I'm new to ATA & am keen to get more education of many aspects on here, having had an interest in these areas for many years.
Background: I work for a small OEM lighting company & we use many different brands of lamps, fittings, & control gear on our projects. We generally stick to a few of the major players for lamps & gear for consistency of supply & quality.We have seen many MR16 LED lamps over the past few years. Most are not worth the effort with very poor output, colour variations = mixed bin, etc.
Some new LED replacements lamps we are seeing coming on to the market from major players like Philips & Osram are proving to be reasonable replacements for halogen at this stage.The Osram Coinlight Power has a large heat sink & would not fit every MR16 downlight.
The Philips 7W & 10W use a mini fan in place of a heat sink & it can be heard when held up near your ear. They must be used in open fittings with min. 10mm clear around it, so no good if you have ceiling insulation & a heat can or bag over it.
Philips & Cree are working together on LED products, which they both market.
From their respective data sheets:
The Coinlight Power is stated at 700lm for 3000K & 750lm for 4000K. All figures @ 700mA input.
Candela vary with 2450-2600 for the 30degree & 640-670 for the 60 degree beams.
CRI >80 & 15W. Efficancy of 47lm/W for the 3000K & 50lm/W for 4000K. They offer 30000 hrs.The Osram Coinlight requires a LED driver & are dimmable on the correct driver.
The 7W Philips come in 15, 24 & 36 degree, 2700, 3000 & 4000K, 3210-3600 @ 15deg cD down to 815-980 cD @ 36deg. CRI=80 & offer 40000 hrs if keep within their temp limit (-25C to 40C ambient)
The 10W Philips come in 15, 24 & 36 degree, 2700, 3000 & 4000K, 4100-4700 @ 15deg cD down to 1050-1295 cD @ 36deg. CRI=80 & offer 25000 hrs if keep within their temp limit (-25C to 40C ambient)The Philips have been tested OK on a selection of trailing/leading edge dimmable electronic transformers (Philips & Osram) with some (Clipsal & Relco) dimmers. Some combo's are not compatible.
Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 4:41:51 am from IP # -
manu66
MemberThanks canyoner, I think I need to stick to 60 degree beam angle so might look out for the Osram 4008321445155.
Interestingly I found a chart online which shows at 2m this model provides 160lx which is about what I've measured from some of my existing (not new) halogens and is much better than some old halogens (80lx). A brand new 50w halogen measured 230lx.
So the Osram is 12v? Would it work off my existing iron-core transformers or are the drivers more efficient?
Any idea of cost or where to purchase?
Thanks again.
Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:38:42 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterI quite like these, haven't tried them yet: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390256008652
But my preference for downlights is to fit ES27 downlight cans so that way you can fit any type of bulb you wish, halogen, CFL or LED. Never fit downlights with transformers, the losses are just wasted money and they increase the fire hazard risk.
Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:53:35 am from IP # -
canyoner
MemberHi Manu66,
The Osram Coinlight are a constant current device, so they need a driver.
The drivers are 18W output & the Coinlight draws 15W, so it's one to one.There are some companies who make drivers to run multiple LED fittings, but are expensive & work better with control systems & dimming.
To buy them, best bet is ask your local Electrical wholesaler who deals with Osram.
Remember, LED does drop in brightness over the life of the lamp - as does Fluoro, Halogen & Metal Halide. Just some have a much longer life than others & therefore less noticeable.
Posted Monday 21 Feb 2011 @ 2:08:29 am from IP # -
beetle
Memberi would like to add that on my holidays in china i have purchased house full of led globes 5w to run on 240 volt not the recomended 12 v as i belive that the cost and easy instalation outweigh the norm that everyone seems to follow. My bill for the quarter is aproximately 700w usage per day and cost of the power used is $1.20 per week mind you i haven't got a airconditioner and my basic usage is television and fridge . the water is instant gas hws by rinnai i think its the 15 model ie 15 ltr per minute or something like that. there is only the two of us . i have looked at the numbers to what i seem to understand and i can't seem to find any reason to put solar power as most of my bill is supply only and as far as i know upon inquiring about all the benefits $ financial not the mambo jambo i couldn't get any real answers can anybody advise in simple $$$ what is the benefit for someone that instals solar i mean if i generate $45 extra per quarter would my bill be reduced by that or do i only get credits on the power usage???
Posted Tuesday 22 Feb 2011 @ 3:56:28 am from IP # -
Buzzman
Memberbeetle
Credit should be for the whole bill. My power supplier is also my LPG gas supplier for my Rinnai HWS and I ordered a cylinder last quarter and my solar PV credits came off the whole bill, so I got a free gas cylinder as well as free power and free connection, and a cash credit of $42.In, short, go for it. With your consumption level it will pay for itself in a few years and provide cash income each qtr.
Although normally you only get it automatically paid once a year, but if you ring up and ask for the credit as a cash refund they send a cheque.
Posted Wednesday 23 Feb 2011 @ 12:07:28 am from IP # -
hamish05
Memberbeetle said "on my holidays in china i have purchased house full of led globes" .....Good idea, as I intend to be in China in May/June (Yangtze River/Dam cruise)
Can anyone supply details of a good quality LED globe that will fit into the standard 50W x 12v Halogen fitting? Also a reputable retailer in Beijing from where I could purchase them?
Any information appreciated.
Posted Wednesday 23 Feb 2011 @ 4:10:39 am from IP # -
Thinkwise
MemberUnfortunately there is no globe that will replace a standard 50w halogen completely, as mentioned a few times on this forum 800-900 lumens isn't achievable with the limited heat sink size of a standard halogen. There are however full replacement fittings which will do the job, after all at some stage the transformer will die and you will need an electrician to fix that, why not just get them in now to get a complete fixture.
Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 2:05:53 am from IP # -
hamish05
MemberThinkwise, I have already replaced all of my halogen globes and removed the transformers. I presently have 13W x 240V Hycon lamps in their place (in the same fitting) This happened after a "near miss" when a rarely used Halogen started a smolder in my ceiling. Needless to say the change occurred very quickly after the incident.
Whilst I am generally happy with the replacement lamps (Hycon) there are some places in the kitchen where "she" would like more light. I have been waiting for a suitable LED substitute
I have no problem changing the whole fitting, but I have seen some LED globes that will fit my existing fittings. Unfortunately, they are no where bright enough. Thought I may find some in China, (at the rite price) later in the year.
Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 3:01:46 am from IP # -
Thinkwise
MemberHave you got any info on the Hycon light? Google gives me nothing. Some advice would be to look in Taiwan as they have much better designs than China mainland without a big price hike (the products are usually manufactured in mainland but the design and QC are usually much better). Also aim for something 350/700mA that way you can buy local drivers as 99% of Chinese drivers are illegal here and are generally terrible quality.
You really do get what you pay for though.
Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 4:10:29 am from IP # -
hamish05
MemberHycon "Lamp Cups" are on the shelf at Bunnings in 11W. Blue box, white writing. I purchased mine (13W) from a Specialty lighting shop not far from where I live.
Ascentliving.. 1/ 244-246 Ballarat Rd, Braybrook VIC 3019, Australia
(03) 9318 8908They are a compact fluorescent, lo temp (approx 50c), instant light. Unlike the first I tried which took time to start and more time to warm up.
They are distributed by.. (from the end of the box)
RBP Wholesale p/l
Campbellfield Drv.
Campbellfield 3061
Email: rbp@iinet.net.auI hope this info helps.
Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 7:57:41 am from IP # -
Thinkwise
MemberFrom what I can gather from Ascent is they are a standard fluro gu10 without a cover giving slightly more output and are no longer being made. Is there anything in detail you wanted to know? comparison etc? Judging by the fluro's I have tested a 6-7W GU10 led should come close for total light output.
That said fluro and LED are two very different animals my testing on a 9W fluro gu10 achieved 52 lux at 1m which is pretty unusable in my eyes, beam angle was close to 180degrees due to poor reflection. A 6w LED gu10 was getting around the 500-600 lux depending on color, this would only be appropriate for small areas as the beam angle was 30 degree from memory, which potentially could be just as useless.
Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 11:59:14 pm from IP # -
hamish05
MemberThere is nothing about them I need to know, thanks anyway. I am extremely happy with what I have and the light they emit. It is even, and bright and not dissimilar to the 50W halogens they replaced.
We have an island bench in our kitchen which could be better lit and I will eventually replace the Hycon (2) with LED's at some stage.
I thought I may have been able to be more helpful, hence the question.
Posted Tuesday 8 Mar 2011 @ 12:36:58 am from IP # -
bordercollie
MemberI have a new house with no lighting as yet,and I would like to install LED downlights. I don't want to go down the path of installing halogen or CFL now to replace them latter on. It seems that the performance of 50w halogen is the standard that LEDs are compared against.What lights are available now that have comparable performance to halogen downlights? How do you go about planing where lights should be placed in a room given that there are so many variables e.g. beam angles, light outputs and outputs per watt from different manufacters eg how could you determine if 6 downlights in a room could be replaced with 4 from a light with different characteristics?
Posted Thursday 17 Mar 2011 @ 2:42:47 am from IP # -
ghostgum
Memberbordercollie, one equivalent of a 50W halogen is the Brightgreen D900. I've never used nor even seen this in use.
You work out for each area how many lux you need. There are some standard figures of 200-500 lux for task work, and 40-80 lux for ambient lighting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LuxIt can be hard to work out, because manufacturers don't always give all the necessary data.
For our house, we got close to my estimates, calculated from the specified total light output from each fitting, and the area it covered.
The figures you need are lumens (total light output), watts (together with lumens gives you efficiency), beam width (is this full width or half width, both are used), and lux at specified distance (often 1 or 2m).
As an example a 1000 lumen light radiating evenly in each direction gives 80 lux at 1m (1000 lumens divided by 4pi). If it spreads its light over half a sphere, it is double that, or 160 lux at 1m. At 2 metres, the figures are one quarter of this (square law).Are only the downlights to be LED? Indirect lighting in the main living area could be useful while watching TV. Cheapest would be a pedestal lamp lighting up the ceiling. More expensive would be some LED lights above window pelmets, or in wall fixtures.
Posted Thursday 17 Mar 2011 @ 3:22:57 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterMy first suggestion is simply don't install downlights, they cause more problems than they solve.
They compromise any insulation in the ceiling, they also restrict the types of lighting that can be used. Also, for general illumination, downlights are inefficient as they are meant as task lighting and can't disperse light in a 180 degree beam. Look at any room with downlights and you will see the lighting is quite uneven, resulting in the need for multiple fixtures.
The most efficient forms of lighting are hanging or batten fittings (like older homes have) that radiate light in all directions. Surface mount fittings like oyster lights are also pretty good, but anything recessed is always going to be less effective lighting (except for task lighting, which is what downlights are best at).
So, my suggestion is, rather than cutting a heap of holes in the ceiling, have a look at other options and see what you can find. A simple $5 batten fitting can take almost any type of bulb and almost any type of lamp shade and is much more versatile than a downlight.
Posted Thursday 17 Mar 2011 @ 3:26:01 am from IP # -
But Lance they look so awesome!!
Posted Thursday 17 Mar 2011 @ 5:08:45 am from IP #
