It gets hot in Bendigo during the summer.
I have room inside one of my buildings to build and underground coolroom.
Has anybody had success with the concept?
I am thinking to excavate the hole about 3m wide 3m long and 2.4M deep.
I will leave the ground open to the arty perhaps with small gravel spread over.
Walls to be boxed and with insulation over head only have concrete walls , designed to suit the situation.
With an insulated roof and 300mm over earth cover, I am hoping it will keep things cooler than being on the surface.
Any ideas welcomed, thanks
Underground coolroom
(20 posts) (6 voices)-
jdaley
MemberPosted Saturday 20 Jan 2018 @ 1:35:27 am from IP # -
David
MemberThere will be issues with ground seepage which can be continuous and at times considerable into the hole, if enough water seeps into the area around a sealed cool room it will want to pop out of the ground and float, there are a couple ways of dealing with this but it needs to thought about and designed for carefully, also have you checked that there is no rock or similar to that depth.
A cool room also needs to be "water tight" or more accurately be able to drain water out/away from the interior. If it was not fully sealed on the sides and bottom as well, with drainage, it will rapidly become an issue for anything kept in it.
It can be done but the design/build must deal with these issues to be useful.
Posted Saturday 20 Jan 2018 @ 2:51:46 pm from IP # -
Morbo
Member300 mm ceiling, will that keep the heat out? Maybe some extra shade structure on top? This will get the sun sorted, you only have to deal with the air temperature.
Ground water, you would need a pump. Or is it on a slope, hen you could drain around it. Water will com in somehow, you need a plan to remove it.Posted Saturday 20 Jan 2018 @ 8:48:47 pm from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberI'd go more than 2.4m deep.
Reckon you need about a metre above the ceiling of the cellar room to keep the temperature stable, and have the ground above shaded. Could add good insulation above the ceiling if it was solid concrete ceiling I guess, but even then the ceiling would need to be well below the ground level.
Definitely need wall protection outside to prevent water flowing through the walls, and a pump system and drain at the floor.
Posted Saturday 20 Jan 2018 @ 10:56:37 pm from IP # -
axess
Memberjdaley,
I have heard of EPS blocks(Zego etc) stacked and filled with concrete grout being used as basement walls. They would give good structural integrity and are able to be waterproofed fairly easily. The internal wall surface doesn't matter that much I assume.
As David and Bushwalker suggest, drainage and water removal from the inside is crucial.Posted Saturday 20 Jan 2018 @ 11:22:11 pm from IP # -
jdaley
MemberThe poolroom will be built inside the house, under a 'studio' area.
So it will not get any sun on it, and being a dry climate, I am pretty sure water ingress will not be an issue, but thanks for mentioning it. The house has spoon drains etc on the upper side of the land.
When I read about root cellars they seem to ensure the ground is exposed on the floor, I cannot remember why but its something to do with maintaining constant humidity perhaps?There does not seem to be rocky ground at the location, and it would be possible to did this using electric jack hammers etc.
I don't I could get a machine in the area, but I have done that before and while its hard, its possible.
In fact I have watched them building wells, and they line the walls with bricks, as they go down, being circular the bricks lock together, and thus the working area is safe and completed.
With my idea, I can think about pouring concrete sections as I go down, or at least use rock anchors and planks to hold the sides if need be.
I was hoping I found somebody who had one of these to confirm the concept is good.
Thanks anywayPosted Sunday 21 Jan 2018 @ 1:30:36 am from IP # -
jdaley
MemberFor something already prefabricated
https://www.weltevree.eu/ventures/groundfridge/Posted Sunday 21 Jan 2018 @ 1:38:06 am from IP # -
jdaley
MemberFound this;
What does a Root Cellar need?
There are five major elements that a root cellar requires:
1 Ventilation
2 Earth-shelter (Either in the basement of your home or buried outside)
3 Darkness
4 Humidity
5 Shelving
Root Cellar Ventilation
This is one of most common mistakes that people make when designing/installing a root cellar.
They build their underground food storage airtight to keep things nice and cold, and everything spoils. Why? Because some foods give off ethylene gas, which speeds ripening (and rotting).A root cellar that is too airtight may also build up excess humidity, leading to mold and mildew.
How should you ventilate your root cellar? Use two vents, about 3-4 inches in diameter. Make sure to put screen on the outside to keep mice out! Place the vents so that one in near the top of the root cellar to exhaust stale air and ethylene gas. The other should be run down to near the floor, to drop in fresh air. 4 inch vents should be adequate for to up to around an 8’x10’ room. If your cellar is larger than this, consider additional venting.. As fruits such as apples and pears ripen, they give off ethylene gas which decreases the storage life of vegetables. This is especially evident with potatoes which sprout early if stored near certain fruits.
To combat spoilage from ethylene gas, segregate fruits and veggies that produce excess ethylene gas from those that are easily damaged from ethylene gas.Fruits and Vegetables that may create excess ethylene gas include:
Apples, apricots, avocados, ripening bananas, blueberries, cantaloupe, citrus fruit (not grapefruit), cranberries, figs, guavas, grapes, green onions, honeydew, ripe kiwi fruit, mangoes, melons, mushrooms, nectarines, okra, papayas, passion fruit, peaches, pears, peppers, persimmons, pineapple, plantains, plums, prunes, quinces, tomatoes and watermelon.Fruits and vegetables that may be damaged by excess ethylene gas include:
Asparagus, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, carrots, cauliflower, chard, cucumbers, cut flowers, eggplant, endive, escarole, florist greens, green beans, kale, kiwi fruit, leafy greens, lettuce, parsley, peas, peppers, potatoes, potted plants, romaine lettuce spinach, squash, sweet potatoes, watercress and yams.
Root Cellar Location – In the Basement or Buried Outside?
By default, the word “cellar” means “underground”. A big part of why root cellars work as well as they do is that the earth remains at a relatively constant (cool) temperature. This temperature will vary, depending on your location. Closer to the equator, and it may be cooler than air temp, but still isn’t likely to act well as a root cellar.
proper temperature (both in the root cellar and in the house).Root Cellar Lighting
Light exposure is the enemy of food storage. Every time I see people lining up their canning jars or spices on open shelves, I cringe. It looks beautiful, but light bleaches out the color and the nutrient value of foods.
In the root cellar, light exposure may lead to sprouting and green potatoes. If you’re venting through a window, cover the rest of the window. If you have a light in your root cellar so you can see your food storage better, don’t leave the light on when you’re not using it. A hunk of burlap drawn over bins of potatoes or fruit will allow ventilation while still blocking the light.Root Cellar Humidity – Keeping Things Moist But Not Wet
Checking the storage chart below, you’ll see that most fruits and vegetables store best with fairly high humidity. If you have a dirt or gravel floor in your root cellar, you’re in luck, because the natural ground moisture will help keep your produce damp.
Produce will give off some moisture on its own, but if you note that your produce is shriveling, your root cellar is probably too dry. Take a tip from the grocery stores, and try a little misting action with a spray bottle. Avoid getting any area too wet, as that can lead to standing water and potential mold growth. Some people left trays of water in the root cellar, but beware doing that as it can also result in bacteria or mold growth.Root Cellar Shelving
Shelving should allow airflow and add storage. Shelves at multiple heights can be used to store different items. Good shelves make the root cellar more usable and accessible. 2×4's with a gap allow airflow, or plywood with gaps in the back will work also.
How to Store Fruits and Vegetables in the Root Cellar
This is the approach I use in our root cellar.
Onions and garlic don't mind it a little warmer and drier, so I store them in trays on higher shelves. They can sit out in your kitchen for a while, too. Storing in trays on the shelves allows for good ventilation. Also, if an onion starts to go bad, they can be spotted and removed immediately before they spoil the whole batch. My mom used to store her onions in mesh sacks, but many times one bad root would spoil a large number of those around it.
Potatoes go close to the floor where it is cooler and moister (but not wet, because too much moisture will cause rot). I cover the potatoes with burlap or landscape fabric to block out the light (and prevent green potatoes) but allow ventilation.
Track temperature and humidity to get a good long term sense of your root cellar performance. The SensePush unit can track up to 20 days with syncing with your smartphone.
A few cabbages go on the top shelf, and apples go out in the garage in a container. Pumpkins and squash go on the floor of the canning pantry or the top shelves in the root cellar, because they like it a little warmer and drier.
I store vegetables that need more moisture in buckets, bins or boxes packed with lightly dampened leaves. For us this usually means beets and carrots (I overwinter parsnips out in the garden). I tried packing vegetables in sawdust and in sand, but prefer the leaves. For me, sand stayed too moist and led to rotting, plus it made a terrible mess. Sawdust was also very messy, but better than sand. It stuck to all the little root hairs. The leaves provide moisture to keep your roots from shriveling up, but are easy to brush off with much less mess. Do use fresh leaves each year to prevent potential pathogen buildup. (Compost the used leaves.)
Recommended Root Cellar Books
The best resource we have found on root cellars is the book Root Cellaring: Natural Cold Storage of Fruits & Vegetables by Mike and Nancy Bubel. No matter what your location or how much space you have, the Bubels are likely to have a root cellar option that will work for you. It contains detailed explanations of how to store vegetables and fruits without electricity with specific temperature and humidity recommendations for each variety. There are also good photos and diagrams, which I really like. The Complete Root Cellar Book is more recently published, and has also gotten good reviews.Posted Sunday 21 Jan 2018 @ 2:25:28 am from IP # -
Morbo
Memberroot cellar.I see.
Does not give much useful advice though reg building it. Unless you want to be mummified in there.
Humidity is one thing, seeping in ground water another. I seen water running to cellars when the snow starts melting and the soil saturates with water. Plus have to check, I guess the ground temperature is more even, but may still be quite warm. Maybe for a start get a temperature probe and some gal pipe. Create a hole with the gal pipe and stick the probe in maybe 1.5m deep and see, how it goes over summer. Plus with a 2nd pipe you can check for your water table. I guess its lower than 3m. But rain water will seep in anyway.
Have to dig the hole way bigger, so you can seal the concrete from the outside. There is some cold tar and then I guess could use something like a swimming pool liner. Still chances thoug for the whole thing to be lifted. How much rain fall in Bendigo?Posted Sunday 21 Jan 2018 @ 5:41:41 am from IP # -
jdaley
MemberRainfall is about 450mm in Bendigo We don't get snow here either
Any cellar will not need waterproofing here.
No rain will seep in, because of the low rainfall and spoon drains I am building prior to digging.
It seems humidity may be sorted with ventilationPosted Sunday 21 Jan 2018 @ 5:56:59 am from IP # -
Morbo
MemberIdug stump holes under my house, from 300mm onward theclay gets a bit wetter. No idea, if eventually water would seep out. I guess if you have a pergola over it that is 1m wider, or say a shed, you have the moisture sorted and the radiation. For water lifting up that tank, you need constant moisture, so it has time to get that deep. You guys got clay? Or is it more sand? Maybe some AG pipe for good measure to get the moisture from the top soil away. Around Castlemaine its 2mm topsoil, then sand, then clay. Very unlikely you will drown down there.
Ventilation some downpipe and a witches hat and some mozzi net, can buy that snorkel thing in some hardware shop.Posted Sunday 21 Jan 2018 @ 8:11:34 am from IP # -
jdaley
MemberI plan to build the cellar within the footprint of the house, so shading etc are covered, pun intended,
Top soil here is as bad as Castlemaine. Is that where you are?
We have no sand, but the clay breaks readily with the jack hammer.
I like to experiment once I try something, so I will play with temperatures, blackened vent pipes etc to see what is working.
So often I come across info only to find it is not backed up with measurements or even an experiment, its just a hopithiese
[ can't remember spelling ]Posted Sunday 21 Jan 2018 @ 10:23:06 am from IP # -
jdaley
MemberAnother bit of information;
There is a difference between a true root cellar, or just a cool pantry?
Root cellars are typically kept much more humid to preserve certain root crops, whereas a cool pantry is useful for storing a wider range of food supplies and other things as well.
The walls and floor of a root cellar are often left without a moisture barrier to the surrounding soil to help maintain the humidity.Posted Sunday 21 Jan 2018 @ 11:17:36 am from IP # -
Vauban
Memberhttp://www.abdallahhouse.com/ in Seymour/Vic.
http://ramblingsdc.net/Australia/Cellar.html ("I have written these notes about a cellar that I built in the Mid North of South Australia in the hope that they might be of some use to others who are contemplating building a cellar. I would like to have been able to read about other people's experiences before building my cellar, it might have made my job easier.")
Consult the above two to put some soberinbg temperature figures to your project. Because mean annual ground temp. at 3m depth for root cellars in Germany or Canada is around 10C but in Vic it will be closer to 20: the Clare builder cited above measured 18C at the bottom of wells on his property.
If you consult the FAO table on the Net concerning which different foods spoil how fast at what temperatures you will see how fast spoilage at anything above 60 Fahrenheit is.
Posted Monday 22 Jan 2018 @ 1:49:35 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberGood info there Vauban.
If I were to do one of those, I'd bury it deeper so the roof of the cellar would be a metre below the ground level. Better to be deep like that idea than to be above ground and covered with soil and vegetation. That way, the temperature would be even more stable. The deeper, the less variation of temps.
Posted Monday 22 Jan 2018 @ 6:41:20 am from IP # -
axess
MemberJdaley,
Something else to consider is safe access. I know of at least one person who has issues with using their wine cellar because of the steep risers and narrow treads of the steps. Their problem is related to aging and health issues. In their case of course there is only one trip down at a time because once they have consumed the wine they are no longer able to use the steps safely!Would you use a hatch or similar to cover the entry point?
Posted Monday 22 Jan 2018 @ 7:46:58 pm from IP # -
jdaley
MemberThere was limited gold activity in my area, in fact I don't want gold to be found here, because then my small farm would be turned upside down by grovelling pricks.
I plan a traditional stairwell, from my research it would appear as if the best I can achieve is a cool pantry, not a root cellar, so potatoes can't be stored but preserved foods and many other things can be.
It seems the best temp I can get down to will be about 15-18 degrees.
Based on ground temps recorded in the area at 1M depth, of 20CPosted Monday 22 Jan 2018 @ 9:19:45 pm from IP #