hi just a quick question, we are getting our house build and the windows are in, the outside brick being finished and I see there is a big gap between the studs and frame that holds the window in place, I asking if that gap needs filling with expanding foam or something. I did ask the and the reply I got was, "don't worry about it as when the plasterboard goes on it will be sealed by that", I am thinking what am I paying for extra thick insulation for if there is a gap around the windows, even if it is inside the walls,have I got this wrong somehow?
cheers
Double glazing, gap between studs and frame.
(41 posts) (18 voices)-
lorri
MemberPosted Thursday 27 Jul 2017 @ 1:50:34 am from IP # -
ilmessaggio
MemberAnd where is this extra thick insulation supposed to go, ceiling or walls?
Posted Thursday 27 Jul 2017 @ 2:19:10 am from IP # -
Phil A
Memberlorri said:
hi just a quick question, we are getting our house build and the windows are in, the outside brick being finished and I see there is a big gap between the studs and frame that holds the window in place, I asking if that gap needs filling with expanding foam or something. I did ask the and the reply I got was, "don't worry about it as when the plasterboard goes on it will be sealed by that", I am thinking what am I paying for extra thick insulation for if there is a gap around the windows, even if it is inside the walls,have I got this wrong somehow?
cheersLorri, you are right on the money,
That gap is can be (depending on the workmanship) the highest energy loss area of the whole wall. I cut pieces of insulation and fitted it in there. If you have a thermal imaging camera or even an infrared thermometer you will soon see how much difference it makes.
Gees some builders have no idea do they.....Posted Thursday 27 Jul 2017 @ 5:32:09 am from IP # -
Johnnojack
MemberRemember just one thing. When a builder or tradie says don't worry about it, that's when you need to do your own research ( like asking here), trust your own judgement and insist they do what you want. The question, yes any break in the insulation is a major thing and needs to be filled with insulation not just covered up with gyprock.
Phil posted at the same time as me. Ditto, what he says.Posted Thursday 27 Jul 2017 @ 5:36:22 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberThe best method is to seal the structure of the timber frame of the whole house using a suitable air tight membrane. The membrane would be sealed with suitable tape to the window and door frames and it would resolve the passage of air into the building envelope.
Intello is a well known wrap from ProClima in NZ: http://proclima.co.nz/intello-airtightness-membrane
Posted Thursday 27 Jul 2017 @ 5:48:35 am from IP # -
lorri
MemberThanks guys, I saw the site supervisor at the house today, he said that he will ask the guys to put some of the insulation in the gaps, I did ask him about doing it with that expanding foam, but he said no, it expands too much and can cause problem, I read about low expanding foam but he didn't seem interested. The house is wrapped in this https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjAybXM_qjVAhUIe7wKHbdqARwQFggsMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.proctorgroup.com.au%2Fproctorwrap-rw%2F&usg=AFQjCNGr3F83nyqoZqUvxSCXfxo6lpYaIA
But it is not taped up on any joins or rip or holes.Not sure if that's the same as the wrap you mentioned.
Posted Thursday 27 Jul 2017 @ 8:31:32 am from IP # -
Annette
MemberDon't let them put up the plaster without checking how they have filled the gaps.
I'm pretty sure that the standard for insulation installation requires the gaps to be filled.
They can also use foam backing rod to fill the gaps. This is an extruded flexible foam rod that comes in various widths and is used to fill gaps. More expensive than insulation, but faster to install.
Posted Thursday 27 Jul 2017 @ 10:33:59 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberProctorwrap is ok.
But... If the wrap is installed, it should be taped:
"In combination with taping overlaps, Enviroseal™ ProctorWrap™ RW can help form an air tight wrap for the building, reducing the loss of heated air or cooled air from the building thus improving the energy efficiency of the building envelope."
Here is one of Proctor's tapes: http://www.proctorgroup.com.au/proctorpassiveabtape/
"Ideal for use as an air and water tight seal for construction membranes and vapour barriers around pipes, windows, overlaps and penetrations."
The builder should be required to tape the wrap right up to all the door frames, windows and any other penetrations through the wall. Any joins in the wrap should also be taped. As usual, many builders don't care about the benefit of well sealing the house with a wrap.
Posted Thursday 27 Jul 2017 @ 1:15:57 pm from IP # -
tom rickard
MemberUnless you have a well thought out ventilation system, leave the gaps open.
Posted Friday 28 Jul 2017 @ 3:25:48 am from IP # -
arttt
Membertom rickard said:
Unless you have a well thought out ventilation system, leave the gaps open.I dont agree Tom. If the builder isnt getting this right then i dont think there is a worry about the building being too air tight, there will be plenty of other gaps. Do the best you can with gap sealing as you have to do a very good job and have the builder doing things right before you have a ventilation problem.
Posted Friday 28 Jul 2017 @ 4:19:42 am from IP # -
Morbo
Memberyou mean the gap between timber frame and window frame? Who did install the double glazing, someone from Cowboy Builders, the show with 22 Mio possible candidates in Australia?
Nowmally the installer puts expanding foam in, but apparantly, it actually has to be felt or something, because the foam may shrink. Otherwise, whats the point of acoustic/thermal rating given by the double glazing?Posted Friday 28 Jul 2017 @ 5:07:31 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberLeave the gaps open?
So all those gaps would be a massive job to seal later when the owners realise they can save energy by restricting the leaks in the house during times of external out of comfort temps...
We had a house like that, cost a LOT to repair the leaks. If we want leaks now, we can just open a window so we have the opportunity to have leaks if we want.
Posted Friday 28 Jul 2017 @ 6:09:12 am from IP # -
lorri
MemberWell I think I will be going with sealing the gaps as much as I can, I don't think the builders interested in doing it, when the anticon blanket was put on when the colourbond was put up I asked him the same question about the joins and tears etc, he said that it will let the condensation out and that he has been in roof spaces where it's been sealed and they were dripping with it.
I asked him about the gaps between the window frame and studs, I thought that they would be sealed too, I said what about that expanding foam, he said it's terrible stuff because it expands more than you think and pushes out the frame etc and that he will tell the guys fitting the insulation to stick some in the gaps.
So on the whole they are not bothered about it. So we have to try and work out stuff that's important. We do have access to the house and the site supervisor is ok with us being on site.
Posted Friday 28 Jul 2017 @ 11:18:15 pm from IP # -
axess
MemberHi lorri,
It's great to see you paying attention to sealing issues, particularly at this stage.
Had you planned on getting a fan door test closer to completion? Sometimes the builder can be revved up a bit if the fan door test outcome can be used to track problems prior to the finish of construction. Those working on the job need the performance evidence in front of them to see how important sealing is particularly in colder climates.
Those who don't actually live in the house after completion need to see an earlier result of inattention to sealing detail. I assume there is nothing (no performance target clause-number of air changes/hour) in the contract to make the sealing issue enforceable? Can you take this issue to the state building association- Master Builders or the like- for a query with their green Building section perhaps?
Good luck with it all.
Posted Friday 28 Jul 2017 @ 11:33:34 pm from IP # -
lorri
MemberHi Axess, no we haven't planned a fan test, my hubby in not very green lol anything I want I have to try and guide him where I want, doesn't work half the time though.
Unfortunately we have nothing in the contract that covers this. So we are on our own with it all.
CheersPosted Friday 28 Jul 2017 @ 11:46:15 pm from IP # -
Annette
MemberHi Lorri
Are you having an independent building inspection done at each of the stages?
Your builder sounds very unaware of several issues. The comment about the condensation dripping off the anti con is quite worrying.
If I were you, I would inspect the insulation before the plaster goes on ( either myself or get someone else to do it).
Posted Saturday 29 Jul 2017 @ 6:54:06 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
Memberlorri said:
I asked him about the gaps between the window frame and studs, I thought that they would be sealed too, I said what about that expanding foam, he said it's terrible stuff because it expands more than you think and pushes out the frame etc and that he will tell the guys fitting the insulation to stick some in the gaps.Heck! Are your window frames made out of cardboard?
Expanding foam will fill the gaps, and the excess will come out of the gap. It won't do anything to the frame. The builder sounds pretty ignorant.
Find someone to show and help how to solve the problem before the walls are covered.
Posted Saturday 29 Jul 2017 @ 2:24:26 pm from IP # -
Annette
MemberBushwalker said:
Heck! Are your window frames made out of cardboard?Expanding foam will fill the gaps, and the excess will come out of the gap. It won't do anything to the frame. The builder sounds pretty ignorant.
Find someone to show and help how to solve the problem before the walls are covered.
Normal expansion foam can push the reveals inward - low expansion foam should be used.
Posted Sunday 30 Jul 2017 @ 3:29:56 am from IP # -
Morbo
Memberand flashing you need as well
http://www.channel5.com/show/cowboy-builders/Posted Sunday 30 Jul 2017 @ 7:50:41 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberAnnette said:
Normal expansion foam can push the reveals inward - low expansion foam should be used.Like the Sikka boom foam our tradies used. sure.
Foam doesn't have to do anything other than to fill the void around the structural part of the windows. Ideally the membrane is also taped to the window over the top of the cured foam.
Posted Sunday 30 Jul 2017 @ 11:33:26 am from IP # -
tom rickard
MemberI think the builder is correct, you will need a well planned ventilation system if you are making your house well sealed. I'd be more worried about that than having gaps, both need to be sorted early in the build to make life easy.
Posted Monday 31 Jul 2017 @ 2:28:59 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberTom, we're not talking about a highly sealed passive house. We're just talking about closing large air leaks that will impact the use of insulation and heating/cooling in a current Australian build.
Really sealing to PH standards requires a lot more than this.
Posted Monday 31 Jul 2017 @ 3:12:54 am from IP # -
axess
MemberI'm with BW on this.
The fitting of exterior storm moulds and interior architraves etc can make very little difference to air ingress over time. By sealing these spaces before trims are fitted makes for a far less draughty house over the longer term, and heating and cooling costs are substantially reduced even in a brick veneer dwelling.
Fully wrapping and taping all penetrations gives a great result allied with good solar design principles every time.
Posted Monday 31 Jul 2017 @ 5:43:00 am from IP # -
From an installation point of view it is typically best practice to leave a 7-10mm gap around each side of the window (atleast in a timber style product, or composite like ours). This allows for the frame to be perfectly squared up and not forced into a potential out of square opening in the building.
To seal the gaps, a low expansion foam should be used on the inside and cut back when set before the plaster goes on, and on the outside a good quality caulk to seal against the brick skin. If done correctly, the caulk will blend in perfectly with the mortar line being similar width and colour.
It would not be advisable to leave the gap open and simply cover with plaster. As noted in the previous comments, this would be a thermal weak point.
Thanks,
Kurt Miglas
Miglas WindowsPosted Monday 31 Jul 2017 @ 7:19:58 am from IP # -
lorri
MemberWell I give up, went to the house and half of the plastering has been done, the insulation is in and will be finished with plastering tomorrow. Gaps everywhere. Hubby doesn't care said the brickie said every house he has worked on is the same. No where for me to go with this if I have no back up.
https://i.imgur.com/TCl3oDf.jpgPosted Tuesday 1 Aug 2017 @ 12:48:39 pm from IP # -
the brickie is correct in that most Australian houses are built to this woeful standard.
change is very slow (glacially slow for the few progressives involved !! ) in the building industry .Posted Tuesday 1 Aug 2017 @ 8:06:32 pm from IP # -
Johnnojack
MemberOh dear that is disappointing but not surprising. To cut and fit the insulation around the GPO and the conduit would have taken a bit of skill and about 2 minutes of time, just stuffing it in without any care took maybe 30 seconds.
Posted Wednesday 2 Aug 2017 @ 9:25:53 am from IP #
