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The scope of alternative technology

(35 posts) (15 voices)

Started 4 years ago by Eco
Latest reply from dax

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Eco
Member

It has been suggest to me that some people might like to discuss the above topic. I touched on in this in another post in a thread on wall insulation. As it was completely off topic to that thread it was thought to be not appropriate to be be discussed extensively under that thread. Anyway I will repeat part of the post here (slightly edited). So jump on board if you want to comment!

In many ways the name of the organisation (the ATA) is an anachronism. The organisation was set up in the 1980s. At that time technologies such as PV and wind generation were "alternative". These days when 16.5% of housing in Australia have PV (https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-australia-the-world-leader-in-household-solar-power-56670) it can hardly be described as "alternative" any more. It is a mainstream sustainable technology and the Association certainly wants PV and other similar technologies to become more and more mainstream. A few years ago there was a process to change the name of the organisation - which sort of fell in a heap as people could not decide on an appropriate name - or an appropriate name was already taken. I think the thing that makes us different to other environmental organisations is the interest of members in technology for sustainable solutions – although there are still some members who are into the “alternative” lifestyles. (Was STA - Sustainable Technology Association (or Australia) already taken?) It may be time for ATA to revisit the name thing.

Posted Saturday 8 Oct 2016 @ 11:32:31 am from IP #
Annette
Member

In the past, the site definitely seemed to be 'geekier' with interesting calculations about energy usage etc, solar aspect and so on (often above my head!).

A lot of the technology is now prepackaged so less need to pop down to Jaycar for bits to DIY ( which was more of a feature even six years ago).

Maybe the name should change.

I would be interested in some site usage stats.

Posted Saturday 8 Oct 2016 @ 10:02:16 pm from IP #
dax
Member

When this forum and organisation were formed a few decades ago, the future was in PV and sustainable energy requirements using lead acid technology. This was what was required for a sustainable safe and secure future back then.

Now PV is almost the norm, so this forum is mainly devoted to normal standard toxic urban building technology and not sustainable alternative technology in any way, in fact it seems to be rejected by the majority.

Todays alternative technology revolves around environmental safety and energy sustainability, because that's what the future requires. That includes electric transport, energy use and storage, sustainable, environmental living, proper safe and sustainable use of materials and commodities to ensure a viable long term future.

To be an alternative technologist or user today, requires you be off grid, have modern energy storage and be reasonably self sufficient in most ways, including food. The real alternative technologists create their own fuels, generate all their energy and utilise alternative food growing technology to sustain and maintains their live styles and survive. They live environmental sustainable lives, devise and use technology to benefit the future, without polluting their lives and environments.

This means you have a sustainable safe and chemically free home, capable of withstanding the ravages of climate change, global warming and sociological breakdown. Which is being caused by insane ideologies, over population, destruction of the environment for economic gain, collapsing infrastructure, essential services and heavily contaminated foods. Anything else is the norm and not sustainable or alternative in any way.

Posted Saturday 8 Oct 2016 @ 11:16:48 pm from IP #
Annette
Member

So, Dax, are you in favour of a name change?

Posted Sunday 9 Oct 2016 @ 12:26:14 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

Maybe we could go back to the original name of the magazine in the 90's. Soft Technology.

Softer on us, the environment, even the wallet if you like.

Posted Tuesday 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:35:47 am from IP #
munter
Member

It is interesting to reflect on how technology or rather the commerciality of technology has changed since the ATA's earlier days. Solar is now so mainstream, battery storage looks like it will proceed in a similar manner (perhaps a little slower) and the concept of energy efficiency is familiar to a much larger group of people now than it was ten years ago. Overall I think that should be celebrated as a great step forward. While significant change is required to achieve any degree of sustainability, the little steps along the way are each of benefit and an positive change.

I also agree that the technological focus has changed from its previous subjects to a new range of technologies, the key ones of which aren't yet really clear in my mind.

Posted Tuesday 11 Oct 2016 @ 1:39:14 am from IP #
dax
Member

Annette said:
So, Dax, are you in favour of a name change?

Don't think a change of name for this forum would make any difference, no one seems interested in the real future, just a fanciful day dream one. The ATA needs to determine where it is headed, does it go with the times and concentrate on real alternative technology, or does it just fade into a run of the mill forum revolving around a dead end future using toxic building methods, as it is now.

Anyone who has used lifepo4 storage system already know where energy requirements should be headed, which is certainly not grid connect nor will it be the current grid systems. Which are unsustainable when looking at what the future holds environmentally and sustainability.

The Energy supply collapse in SA and Tas are forewarnings of what is to come, but on a much bigger, more powerful and more destructive than the majority can even imagine. It's the same with fossil fuels and all there off shoots, they will become scarce because of distance, disruption and economic collapse.

This is where real alternative technology comes in and yet to see any mention of the technology every human will need to survive the next 15 years. Which is a sign of denial, disrespect for nature and the reality that is facing us right now.

All the chemically toxic matchstick homes currently being build will blow away or debilitate their occupants, because of the constant release of toxic gases and dusts. If people took the time to actually research the facts of where we are headed, they may make different decision on what how and where they build.

Posted Tuesday 11 Oct 2016 @ 3:31:15 am from IP #
Johnnojack
Member

Here's a challenge for you Dax, post one reply without the word toxic in it.

Posted Tuesday 11 Oct 2016 @ 10:38:38 am from IP #
dax
Member

Johnnojack said:
Here's a challenge for you Dax, post one reply without the word toxic in it.

The only challenge for me is surviving the future, but your comment is completely understandable, considering the depth of denial ideologues live in. I deal in reality and facts, not empty hope and denial. The facts are the building materials of today are toxic by definition, as are the majority of consumables and commodities used by society.

Posted Wednesday 12 Oct 2016 @ 4:03:56 am from IP #
Morbo
Member

mainstream is 80 + percent. So 16 per cent solar homes, 20 electric cars and a few 100 hybrids is still alternative. Or 3 per cent share of renewables to the countries total. Also the meainstream media just had a field day when the power went out in SA, alternative energy to blame for rotten power poles.

Posted Wednesday 12 Oct 2016 @ 10:45:04 am from IP #
David
Member

Johnnojack said:
one reply without the word toxic in it.

Apparently unable to do it

Posted Wednesday 12 Oct 2016 @ 8:32:48 pm from IP #
Morbo
Member

maybe change it to niche. Alternative is then for tinfoil hat. Vinegar is good, acetic acid is bad.

Posted Wednesday 12 Oct 2016 @ 11:11:44 pm from IP #
Eco
Member

Morbo said:
mainstream is 80 + percent. So 16 per cent solar homes, 20 electric cars and a few 100 hybrids is still alternative. Or 3 per cent share of renewables to the countries total.

So what happens when Australia gets to 20% roof top solar? - which it will eventually. Should the ATA cease its interest in roof top solar because it is no longer "alternative" enough. That is clearly not going to happen. What the organisation is interested in promoting or at least talking about is actually both alternative and sustainable technology - some of which will be both sustainable and alternative, and some that will solely sustainable. Photovoltaics are gradually moving out of the alternative class but are still sustainable - so remains of interest to the ATA. Mudbrick/earthern houses are still in the alternative technology class and their sustainability is a topic of interest to me at least and to many other members. A technology that is alternative but not sustainable and perhaps toxic (there's that word again!) may not be of interest. (For example - nuclear.) Another aspect is that the sustainable technology that the ATA promotes is usually very much small scale that can be implemented by a person or family - and occasionally a community. For example we don't tend to get much discussion on sustainability topics such as geo-engineering - which is definitely alternative.
My uninformed reading of it is that there has always been a tussle within the ATA between the alternative lifestylers (including the survivalists and doomsday preppers who, it could be argued, have the prime interest of saving themselves and their family) and the more mainstream people who don't want to radically change their lifestyle but want their lifestyle and lifestyle of the rest of society to move in a more sustainable direction - and therefore save everyone - as futile as that hope may be.

Posted Thursday 13 Oct 2016 @ 12:06:14 am from IP #
Annette
Member

Morbo said:
maybe change it to niche. Alternative is then for tinfoil hat. Vinegar is good, acetic acid is bad.

Posted Thursday 13 Oct 2016 @ 6:53:47 am from IP #
Morbo
Member

"So what happens when Australia gets to 20% roof top solar?"

20% of households havein rooftop solar. But thats at best 5% energy consumed. Unless industry disappears completely and dodgy builders and coffee outlets will be the only 2 businesses remaining. Which will be in 15 years from now.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/manufacturing-value-added-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html
http://www.industry.gov.au/INDUSTRY/MANUFACTURINGPERFORMANCE/Pages/ManufacturingDataCard.aspx

Posted Friday 14 Oct 2016 @ 9:29:41 pm from IP #
Greg C
Member

It is the same feeling we Apple devotees are feeling. For years we had the underdog, maligned but in everyway superior computer. It was alternative to the max. Look at it now, you very rarely see a non Macintosh computer on the TV, we are dominant and are leading the world. What to do?

Just continue using what is still the superior computer, even users that have to run Windoze, run it on Apple hardware as it is the best. Cerebrate that people have finally woken up but continue driving forward.

So no name change is needed, in the ATA's case it is still not mainstream, still a lot of work to do, exactly what you have been doing. To continue with the Apple analogy, I think we are at the time of the release of the first iMac, 1997. Things are about to take off big time. Hang on for the ride.

Posted Saturday 15 Oct 2016 @ 7:25:54 am from IP #
dax
Member

Apple isn't alternative technology, it's junk just as windows is. They are data thieves, buggy, unsafe expensive, last century systems.

The real alternative computing technology, is linux and it's many derivatives and linux is the most used OS on the planet. Linux holds the majority of servers (OVER 80%), runs all your appliances, is used by the best science institutions, military, NASA, the biggest movie audio and multimedia companies on the planet. Just about all the animations and computer graphics you see in movies, TV studio's and TV are all linux, in fact linux controls more than 90% of all computing on and off the planet, it's free and the cutting edge of computing.

Posted Saturday 15 Oct 2016 @ 8:24:02 am from IP #
Morbo
Member

apple has Intel CPU and Unix rippoff OS. ipod can only play mp4, nothing else. User has no control over itunes. Proper soundcard has 6.3mm sockets, can get that on mac? Actually, can you get any non mac peripherals? Superior you say.
I think Linux and opensource is the go.

Posted Saturday 15 Oct 2016 @ 8:24:41 am from IP #
Greg C
Member

dax said:
Apple isn't alternative technology, it's junk just as windows is. They are data thieves, buggy, unsafe expensive, last century systems.

The real alternative computing technology, is linux and it's many derivatives and linux is the most used OS on the planet.

Apple OS X runs on a Linux base. Make sure you know what you are talking about before sounding off Dax.

Posted Saturday 15 Oct 2016 @ 11:16:00 pm from IP #
David
Member

Greg C said:
Apple OS X runs on a Linux base.

BSD unix base

Posted Saturday 15 Oct 2016 @ 11:46:10 pm from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

Correct. OS X is based on unix.

As a now retired IT dude, I've run Windows, Mac, Unix, Linux, QNX, FreeBSD etc.

For a desktop system for no need to dig into the innards, I'd recommend OS X. Linux has been an excellent opensource OS if you are interested. It will present more hiccups than OS X though, and there can be challenges. I'd put Windows at the end but others put it at the top. It is a magnet for spam and virii.

Still running a 2010 Mac with zero failures since purchase. Our Linux servers run 24/7 and rarely need touching, uptime runs into years without failure as long as they have power backup for electricity faults. Our windows boxen need major work every year or so.

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 12:08:56 am from IP #
dax
Member

Greg C said:
Apple OS X runs on a Linux base. Make sure you know what you are talking about before sounding off Dax.

I know what I'm talking about, Os X is based on unix, not linux. Os x is a closed commercial system that you pay for, so it can't be linux, as linux is free and all open source.

OS X, is derived from a modified BSD and the unix part is darwin. Linux comes through a unix clone and GNU, which uses the linus kernel approach, which created linux. This link may help you know what you are talking about before sounding off.

http://images.apple.com/media/us/osx/2012/docs/OSX_for_UNIX_Users_TB_July2011.pdf

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 12:36:01 am from IP #
Greg C
Member

Getting a bit off topic? Maybe but much the same thing with renewable energy, people have there own ideas about it, plenty of arguments against. We still need the ATA to investigate the various ideas. Like the old chestnut, you can't add things to a Mac (thanks Morbo), but the real question is why would you want to. Similar to renewables, there are those that love to fiddle around and cobble together stuff, myself included, but for most people a system that is set up and just works will be the solution. No need to fiddle with it, just like a Mac

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 1:28:11 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

Like many people who dislike something for other reasons, Morbo has declared his dislike, not his missed understanding about the iPod:

"ipod can only play mp4, nothing else."

http://ipod.about.com/od/fileformatguide/a/file_formats.htm

File Format File Type Associated With Compatible with iPod?
MP3 Audio Open* Yes
AAC Audio Apple Yes
WMA Audio Microsoft No
AIFF** Audio Open Yes
WAV** Audio Open Yes
M4A Audio Apple Yes
M4P Audio Apple Yes
Ogg** Audio Open No
FLAC Audio Open No
RA/RAM Audio Real Networks No
H.264 Video Open Yes
MP4 Video Open Yes
WMV Video Microsoft No
MOV Video Apple No
JPEG Image Open Yes
GIF Image Open Yes

Regarding not being able to 'add things to a Mac', there are plenty of things that can be added to a Mac. It's not a windows PC, so why should it be the same. It's different and used in many high end photo/movie/audio environments with many things added to enable the Mac to work in those environments. The size of an audio plug is of no significance.

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 3:46:19 am from IP #
dax
Member

Greg C said:
Similar to renewables, there are those that love to fiddle around and cobble together stuff, myself included, but for most people a system that is set up and just works will be the solution. No need to fiddle with it, just like a Mac

Again you speak without knowledge and claim you have the knowledge. Major linux distro's work out of the box with no need to install drivers or hunt and pay for software. You just put your dvd or usb into the computer, check out the system, then install it if you want, without disturbing either your windows or apple system, or data.

You can't do that with apple or windows as they will remove other OS when installing and you have no other options. Unlike linux which gives you almost unlimited options and variations to choose from for installation, configuration, desktop content and flavour. Or you can just sit back and use the default setting with no need to do anything else, especially not pay for software.

Then we have backwards compatibility, lots of older software won't work on newer apple windows, but I've yet to find old software that won't work on a linux box, but expect there would be some. We've run our business on linux for about 10 years and used the same old GNU cash release for years without a problem, updating and upgrading the OS without compatibility trouble. We upgraded to the latest release in the last couple of weeks seamlessly, with no effects on our POS or back room operating. In fact the staff didn't really notice until they were given the upgrade notice of changes.

It's the same with multimedia, windows and apple are restricted to what they can use and read, but linux will run all multimedia formats that just work out of the box. Same with MS and apple documentation, they mainly only recognise their own formats, whilst linux recognises and writes to just about any format.

To be honest, can't remember the last time we had any computer problems since switching to linux, no down times, no crashes, no freezing and no ongoing costs. Except for the donations we make to the developers whose software we use and rely upon. This means if we have a problem with new software, the developer or others fix it with 24 hrs normally.

Then you have the added bonus of the safety and security linux provides, we've never been hacked had a virus. Any Attacks on our system never get in as our systems are secure and you can't get that with windows or apple, in fact win 10 is just a bucket full of trouble and mac not much better.

Linux is alternative computing technology and state of the art, light years ahead of win and apple. That's reflected in the world renowned institutions and media producers that use it for all their work. It's in a constant state of evolution which users can access as it's developed in stable or beta or development format and you can recompile the system to your hearts content if you are inclined. Unlike apple or win who struggle to release stable systems that aren't buggy, swiss cheese security and the need to fully install a new system, then hunt down drivers and software that is compatible.

Most linux distro's are rolling or semi rolling, so you can update or upgrade whilst still using your computer and you can't do that with os x or win.

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 4:57:18 am from IP #
Morbo
Member

the ipod I got given only did mp4. Got a chinese thing where I could plug a micro SD card in, does wav, ogg, flac. Has radio. Can connect it to USB and alas, file navigator tells me whats on it, can even make folders. $34 incl shipping. Dont need to install another 40MB bloatware and when I look at the ipod its only cryptic filenames.
Apple just makes its own monopoly and it own little world, hard to get non apple bits to fit. Next thing, can you get an apple laptop with 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD and 1700/3400GHz Quad core CPU for $1200? Doubt it. Using AMD by the way.
The myth that mac is better with images andsoundis from the days, when Commodore had better image and sound than IBM as well. These days the number of chipset and mainboard manufacturers keeps shrinking, so I would not be surprised, if mac has the same chipset as IBM. Its just the advertising that makes people feel good and pay more.

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 5:09:07 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

More myths there, but lets not drag this thread further off track.

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 6:20:17 am from IP #
Lance
Key Master

Yep, I'm calling enough of the windows vs iOS vs linux arguments, thanks, back on topic please, there are plenty of forums where you can have endless arguments about who's OS is better...

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 6:58:43 am from IP #
Annette
Member

Thanks Lance

Posted Sunday 16 Oct 2016 @ 11:47:19 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

Actually data and IT topics are now a significant part of 'alternative' technology these days. It can be a significant part of my daily energy consumption while monitoring and analysing the data is conversely a significant energy saver when used to determine best product or method to pursue. The good news is more and more 'devices' are consuming less in standby for example.

Just yesterday I was able to demonstrate this to a young electrician busily installing air-conditioning units. I showed him our 'other' heat pump which heats water. He was even more impressed with the data recorded since installation via a wireless energy monitor. Hot water in watts not kW. The OS in this case is Win10 because that is what it uses to download data. So I run all 3 depending on what does it the simplest and fastest. Time is more valuable to me than worrying about which OS is best.

Tablets are starting to be real game-changers with both low power consumption and the enormous variety of software available. Real 'soft technology' in action. These things are incredibly reliable and portable to boot. That said most of my computer hardware is 5 -9 plus years old and still going well. I think this remains within the 'scope' of the topic.

Posted Wednesday 2 Nov 2016 @ 10:15:43 am from IP #

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