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Another off-grid question

(18 posts) (8 voices)

Started 6 years ago by sfw
Latest reply from Morbo

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sfw
Member

I have just bought a block of land in Geraldton 400kms north of Perth. There is currently no power available to the block and Western Power want $25k to connect to the grid. So I figured it would be beneficial to go off-grid. So far I have been given quotes of $21-50k and also been told it is not financially viable.

So my question can anyone recommend an installer that can design the right system for the right price, or recommend the right system that I can then go and get quotes on ?

It will be a 3x2 family home with a power hungry family and obviously needs battery and generator backup.

Thanks
Ken

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 1:49:28 am from IP #
franks
Member

Go grid tied a power hungry stand alone system will cost over $30k for 12-15kWh per day, $5k in cost for $5kW grid tied PV good for 15kWh day energy yield

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 4:14:07 am from IP #
wlb
Member

Power hungry doesn't really work off-grid. But I guess it depends on what you mean by power hungry.

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 4:39:43 am from IP #
axess
Member

sfw,

Did Western Power give you a detailed quote? Is it possible for you to do part of the work eg trenching by your own subbie? And your own accredited electrician to do the work up to the pole connection? Or is their price just to hook up the wires outside your block and/or provide a transformer?

Is there still a subsidy for stand alone power and would that offset the installed price enough to go with stand alone power?

Is there a house already on the block and would you have to spend lots on electrical as part of a new build anyway? Trenching might have to be done for water etc anyway.

FYI We spent $12,000 on a small battery system but already had a 2.4kW grid-connected PV system in place.Our usage is about 5 kWh/day.

I would get 2 or 3 quotes from clean energy council? accredited installers who have preferably been doing this work for a while.

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 5:22:57 am from IP #
franks
Member

100mts of 25mm XPLE cable $450, rule of thumb $20-30 per metre for 600mm trench 40mm pipe & XPLE cable.
My power leadin DIY 60mts 2x25mm XPLE 600mm deep 40mm pipe all up for $1k

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 5:34:22 am from IP #
sfw
Member

franks said:
Go grid tied a power hungry stand alone system will cost over $30k for 12-15kWh per day, $5k in cost for $5kW grid tied PV good for 15kWh day energy yield

So $25k for Western Power grid connection plus $5k for PV and I will stay have to pay for Western Power fixed fees plus overnight power usage etc - that doesn't make any sense at all to me, even if I have to pay $35k for an off grid system.

wlb said:
Power hungry doesn't really work off-grid. But I guess it depends on what you mean by power hungry.

The kids and missus just leave lights and TVs on all the time
But there will be a pool pump, aquarium filter, and the usual household stuff (AC, fridge etc).
I am just about to do a detailed analysis of our usage.

axess said:
sfw,

Did Western Power give you a detailed quote? Is it possible for you to do part of the work eg trenching by your own subbie? And your own accredited electrician to do the work up to the pole connection? Or is their price just to hook up the wires outside your block and/or provide a transformer?

Is there still a subsidy for stand alone power and would that offset the installed price enough to go with stand alone power?

Is there a house already on the block and would you have to spend lots on electrical as part of a new build anyway? Trenching might have to be done for water etc anyway.

FYI We spent $12,000 on a small battery system but already had a 2.4kW grid-connected PV system in place.Our usage is about 5 kWh/day.

I would get 2 or 3 quotes from clean energy council? accredited installers who have preferably been doing this work for a while.

Yes it was a detailed Western Power quote - they have to run the power 250m from the nearest transformer to my block at the end of the cul-de-sac.

It is a new build but that power quote doesn't include getting power from the front of the block to the house.

I didn't know there was ever a stand-alone subsidy - will check that out.

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 5:46:16 am from IP #
wlb
Member

sfw said:The kids and missus just leave lights and TVs on all the time
But there will be a pool pump, aquarium filter, and the usual household stuff (AC, fridge etc).
I am just about to do a detailed analysis of our usage.

Are they trainable, the kids and the missus?
Getting plenty of power (solar) during the day is not too expensive these days, but using excessive power between late afternoon and bedtime still is as it all comes down to the size of the battery bank.
Aquarium filters are negligible, the pool filter could be run during the day, low energy lights combined with considerate usage, and a modern TV aren't too big a problem. A well-chosen fridge is also not too bad. The big problems are high power demand things that run for longish periods. Vacuuming or ironing from late afternoon is a problem. As is lots of hair-dryer use. A toaster isn't as it's usually only on for a few minutes. They are the sorts of things to look for.

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 6:10:50 am from IP #
David
Member

sfw said:
I have just bought a block of land in Geraldton 400kms north of Perth. There is currently no power available to the block and Western Power want $25k to connect to the grid. So I figured it would be beneficial to go off-grid. So far I have been given quotes of $21-50k and also been told it is not financially viable.

The amounts you have been quoted are certainly within bounds of what it is likely to cost installed. Good house design and exceptionally good insulation of the house will help to keep the amount of power use down considerably. Pools are not really a big issue particularly if the filtration system has a proper directly solar powered system. These style of systems do not use or require batteries, etc. It is not cheaper to go off grid, compared to your quoted price for grid connection. There is distinct chance though with a well designed and installed system you could well save more than the initial costs, time frame depends on how fast power prices increase.

I have designed and installed systems that should, provided they are treated properly and within design spec should last to more than cover there own cost and may well work out less than being connected to the grid.

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 11:09:44 am from IP #
sfw
Member

David said:
The amounts you have been quoted are certainly within bounds of what it is likely to cost installed. Good house design and exceptionally good insulation of the house will help to keep the amount of power use down considerably. Pools are not really a big issue particularly if the filtration system has a proper directly solar powered system. These style of systems do not use or require batteries, etc. It is not cheaper to go off grid, compared to your quoted price for grid connection. There is distinct chance though with a well designed and installed system you could well save more than the initial costs, time frame depends on how fast power prices increase.

I have designed and installed systems that should, provided they are treated properly and within design spec should last to more than cover there own cost and may well work out less than being connected to the grid.

The house is being built from Insulating Concrete Forms - including the roof - and with tinted double glazed windows. It will be a large esky basically
I could have designed it to be completely solar passive and have the correct orientation and proper flow through design but it is on the side of a hill and it would have stretched my budget that bit too far and I would lose my town and ocean views.
So it is now facing west instead of north - form over function

Anyway back on track - if I spend $35k (which seems to be about right?) to go off grid then it will pay for itself in just over a year given my current average bill of $750 month ($35k minus the $25k I have to spend anyway (and the purchase price of the block was reduced by $25k when we found out there was no power) = $10k additional cost = 13.6months) or am i missing something ??

And back to my original question - does anybody know an installer or supplier that can do the job ?

Thanks

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 12:29:35 pm from IP #
axess
Member

sfw,

Geraldton is a windy place from memory- those blown over bushes/trees on the coast? What about wind battery top-up instead of, or as well as, a generator?

Off-grid usually starts at $35,000 if your current usage is $750/month. Your cooling and hot water load might be your greatest usage, can you use solar for hot water in the new place? You will also need fuel for the generator and add something for future battery replacement and maintenance, depending on the technology chosen.

You could try tendering for offers once you have a system load profile and design since you don't seem to trust anyone who is local. Locals are very useful if something goes wrong. Your builder/architect/house designer/building surveyor/senior contractor would be able to show you the tender process once you have a specification. Western Australian installers would be very used to traveling for jobs. Yet another cost though.

You could contact the Perth ATA branch or West Australian branch of the Australian Solar/Storage Council for possible names to draw up the specification. They would probably act as paid consultants and/or project managers for the job, depending your willingness to pay. Experienced direct supplier/installers normally do this work as part of the job of course.

BTW Is water connected to the site?

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 8:33:42 pm from IP #
franks
Member

Assume 30 cents kWh & $1.50 day access charges $750 month power bill do you use 2100 kWh per month or 70kWh per day, or am I reading it wrong ??
70kWh per day you cant possibly go off grid at $50k capital coat ??

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2016 @ 10:19:14 pm from IP #
sfw
Member

axess said:
sfw,

Geraldton is a windy place from memory- those blown over bushes/trees on the coast? What about wind battery top-up instead of, or as well as, a generator?

Off-grid usually starts at $35,000 if your current usage is $750/month. Your cooling and hot water load might be your greatest usage, can you use solar for hot water in the new place? You will also need fuel for the generator and add something for future battery replacement and maintenance, depending on the technology chosen.

You could try tendering for offers once you have a system load profile and design since you don't seem to trust anyone who is local. Locals are very useful if something goes wrong. Your builder/architect/house designer/building surveyor/senior contractor would be able to show you the tender process once you have a specification. Western Australian installers would be very used to traveling for jobs. Yet another cost though.

You could contact the Perth ATA branch or West Australian branch of the Australian Solar/Storage Council for possible names to draw up the specification. They would probably act as paid consultants and/or project managers for the job, depending your willingness to pay. Experienced direct supplier/installers normally do this work as part of the job of course.

BTW Is water connected to the site?

Planning on going solar hot water with gas (or maybe electric) instantaneous backup.
Cooling shouldn't be as much as current usage given the hugely thermally efficient new building (except the living area facing west but I am taking steps to limit the heat load).

I have thought about wind and would like a vertical axis system but I have limited time to sort this all out - it has to be in the building contract and that has to be signed within 4 weeks from now.

franks said:
Assume 30 cents kWh & $1.50 day access charges $750 month power bill do you use 2100 kWh per month or 70kWh per day, or am I reading it wrong ??
70kWh per day you cant possibly go off grid at $50k capital coat ??

I think its more like 45c/kwh ?
But yeah we use a lot - although that was in our old house running a reverse cycle ducted aircond all day everyday (almost) - our current rental is on solar and in the owners name so we don't actually get a bill at the moment.

Posted Wednesday 20 Jan 2016 @ 1:56:13 am from IP #
David
Member

sfw said:
You could try tendering for offers once you have a system load profile and design

Most businesses unless they are large don't or won't tender for these type of jobs.

I certainly don't anymore. It adds time and costs that have to be recovered from somewhere or someone.

The cost of tendering and often the spec for the "tender" is or may not be what another individual or businesses opinion and/or experience would consider to be correct or may specify equipment they have little faith in or no faith in, etc.

I've had a number of requests for an additional "quotes" from people for SPS solutions which when examined were without question under spec'd or used inferior equipment to make them fit a "price" in most cases, or were never properly profiled in the first place.

I love doing SPS, I will not quote and will walk rather than provide/supply something that's inferior and likely to have the consumer very unhappy at some stage in the future.

#Just my 10cents worth.

Posted Wednesday 20 Jan 2016 @ 2:18:47 am from IP #
axess
Member

David,

I, like you, get requests for quotes every day and often have to deal with conflicting information and incorrect advice from well meaning associates of my clients. They often have to have the applicable Australian Standard explained to them (and umpteen family members) and marked out onsite during the minimum 40 minute consultation.
Turning up with a specification prepared by a hopefully disinterested other helps to alleviate some of this angst. Pointing out possible variations from the standard to achieve a more affordable solution does often occur at this time. Like you, I will walk away if the proposed solution is felt to be either unsafe, provide future warranty problems or is unrealistically priced.

sfw,

Why does the power system have to be part of the building contract? If the builder organises this work then that will possibly add 12-15% to the cost. You just need provision made for the appropriate wiring and room for the plant eg solar panels and battery accomodation. Given future warranty issues I'd be surprised the builder will take it on.

Posted Wednesday 20 Jan 2016 @ 5:50:20 am from IP #
Johnnojack
Member

sfw said:
...
But yeah we use a lot - although that was in our old house running a reverse cycle ducted aircond all day everyday (almost) - our current rental is on solar and in the owners name so we don't actually get a bill at the moment.

You can still read the meter and work out your consumption, even if you only do it for a week. Need to read Power in, power out to grid and Inverter totals.

Posted Wednesday 20 Jan 2016 @ 10:17:26 am from IP #
tom rickard
Member

sfw, I would recommend finding someone that is already living off-grid and with a similar power consumption to that which you require. Read this forum, or look over at energy-matters forum for more information on people that have DIY off-grid systems that have been operational for many years.

Once you have an idea of the components you need, you will be in a better position to talk to an installer and get an idea of the installation cost.

If you can DIY, and have no component failures, you will be better off financially by going completely off-grid. I've seen a lot of very bad information given out in online forums also, so if you don't have a decent background knowledge of off-grid systems and what is required it can be difficult to sift through information.

There are also a few that offer consistently quality information to people that ask questions. David that has responded in this thread is one of them. (no affiliation, i've just seen him consistently offer correct information).

As an indication of what you will be looking for and approx. prices:
Selectronics SPPro or Sunny Island inverter $7k
A/C coupled inverter $3k
Lithium Battery 400Ah $13k
Battery management $1k
Diesel Generator $6k
5kw solar panels $6k
Wiring / racking / enclosures / misc $2k

Labor (maybe 1 week) No idea, but don't skimp on this one, most of the systems I've seen installed by "professionals" around here don't meet Australian standards.

This gives you a basic idea of where your cash will go.

We have a similar system installed, and the only thing we can't do that we used to do in our old house is run our R/C air conditioner all night. (unless we start the generator).

Posted Sunday 24 Jan 2016 @ 1:51:04 am from IP #
sfw
Member

Thanks for everyones help - unfortunately what I thought was going to be my block of land has slipped through my fingers for the fourth time !!

Its a very long story but the short version is that it has been on the market for at least 3 years. I have made 4 offers on it over the last 16 months and each time for various reasons the deal has not gone ahead. This last offer was countered by the bank (its a mortgagee sale now) and I countered back only to find that the estate agent had presented another offer without telling me there was any other interest in the block. The bank accepted the other offer. If I had known I would have accepted the banks counter offer (it was only $5k higher than my counter).
That was actually the second time the estate agent had done that so i didn't expect him to do it to me again.

So the moral of the story is "Don't trust estate agents" - actually don't trust anyone............

Posted Sunday 24 Jan 2016 @ 2:51:25 am from IP #
Morbo
Member

get another agent? And/or go in guns blazing? Property goes up fast, interest rate still low. So messing about 18 months for just 5k? I guess ours goes up 5k in 50 days, without doing anything.

Posted Sunday 24 Jan 2016 @ 3:22:26 am from IP #

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