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Mandatory assessments across Australia for all houses sold & rented

(58 posts) (25 voices)
  • Started 12 years ago by PeterReefman
  • Latest reply from Buzzman

Tags:

  • Energy assessment
  • energy efficiency
  • energy rating
  • Energy ratings
  • Energy star
  • House Energy Ratin
  • Mandatory assessments across Australia for all houses
  • Mandatory assessments across Australia for all houses s
  • star rating
  • sustainability declaration
  • training
« Previous12
  1. cool at home

    cool at home
    Member

    Trickst... FF and others like them driven by greed have DEFINATELY played a major part in stuffing up HSAS. The govt hasn't controlled the process well, but those who don't give a fig about the service they deliver and only are in it for the commissions are what really poisons the system. Should we expect moral behaviour from sustainability professionals? You bet! FF have failed that test - but they are by no means alone in that.

    And don't bleat on to me about how good FF assessors are... FF take 70% of the government fee (taxpayers money) as their commission. You pay people peanuts and they perform like monkeys. "Quick and dirty" assessments is all you can do under those circumstances.

    Posted Thursday 18 Feb 2010 @ 9:36:22 am from IP #
  2. trickst

    trickst
    Member

    RE: cool at home - And don't bleat on to me about how good FF assessors are... FF take 70% of the government fee (taxpayers money) as their commission. You pay people peanuts and they perform like monkeys. "Quick and dirty" assessments is all you can do under those circumstances.

    Excuse me, but when have I even responded to you let alone raised the issue of FF with you? You will find I raised FF in reference to someone else. Perhaps you need to learn it's not all about you.

    For the record, I do contract to FF, and if they hadn't provided the free training and accreditation I would not have had the opportunity to work and excel within this growing sector. So I do not have problem with them taking a commission, considering they provide all the work and marketing.

    Perhaps you are just bitter because you didn't organise yourself sooner and have now missed the boat? Whose fault is that?

    PS: The quality of my assessments are second to none.

    Posted Thursday 18 Feb 2010 @ 10:52:29 am from IP #
  3. Richard247

    Richard247
    Member

    Homes5,

    The HSA course being offered by Holmesglen is the Victorian course, not the Cert IV.

    This course is accredited 21854VIC and is offered by a number of RTO's (please note RTO's not TO's!)

    Regards,
    Richard247

    Posted Thursday 18 Feb 2010 @ 11:55:33 am from IP #
  4. cool at home

    cool at home
    Member

    Trickst, sorry to offend.. I wasn't directing the 'bleating' comment to you, but there have been numerous FF defenders on this site and I'm afraid I can't agree with what they say. I feel that some are 'planted'.

    I am also going broke trying to deliver a good quality product in an environment when so many are not, and FF and their ilk are driving the 'baseline' quality to an extremely low level. "Tired and emotional" is the term, I think...

    If your assessments are good, that is great. I take 3 hours in-house time for a family home, plus bookng and travel time, plus data entry and follow up. That's about 5 hours in total - most of it spent supporting the householder to consider and make needed changes, not to collect data - I consider anything less to be not a HSA, just data collection. I would NEVER EVER do that for the money that FF are paying their assessors, and am amazed that anyone would.

    So no I don't consider I've 'missed the boat'... I consider the boat has been sunk by unscrupulous players and government mismanagement.

    Yes, I am very very bitter - about the damage that has been to this sector. I cannot continue to work in it because (a) the professional has been damaged for years to come (b) the market has been taken over by low standard, govt funded delivery that has ripped the guts out of what used to be a good quality albeit small industry that had great growth potential.

    For the record, I've been doing this work for some time now - well before Green Loans.

    Good luck with your ventures.

    Posted Friday 19 Feb 2010 @ 2:21:23 am from IP #
  5. cool at home

    cool at home
    Member

    Trickst, I'd have sent this straight to you but you don't have an email address recorded in your profile. I read my post in response to yours again, and yes I was a bit 'off' wasn't I. My apologies for that, I was out of order.

    Susan

    Posted Friday 19 Feb 2010 @ 2:24:53 am from IP #
  6. Buzzman

    Buzzman
    Member

    At least Ian Porter is also on the CPSISC list, so we have a voice there!

    I've flicked through the reporting (see the links on the CPSISC website if you want) and it appears from the wording that "thermal performance" measurement is going to be part of the training, which implies that a HERS program will have to be used.

    The ACT EER scheme uses FirstRate, I think, and according to an report I downloaded from the ACT gov site, after 10 years in operation the ACT EER scheme is showing a very clear and positive correlation between star ratings and houseing prices.

    And from what I can glean from anywhere and everywhere, the Fed Gov scheme which was approved in principal at the last COAG will be "more like the ACT scheme" than the Qld one.

    Fingers crossed, I guess

    Posted Friday 19 Feb 2010 @ 6:38:48 am from IP #
  7. JohnW

    JohnW
    Member

    Should the Qld Sustainability Declaration be Scrapped?
    Do we stand a chance against F.E.E.R.S?
    An interesting opinion from Alan Liddle here-
    http://www.sustainabilitydeclaration.net/should-the-sustainability-declaration-be-scrapped/

    Posted Friday 19 Feb 2010 @ 8:43:09 am from IP #
  8. Jackson

    Jackson
    Member

    First Hand FF Experience
    ------------------------

    New to this forum, so forgive me if I am not in the right place.

    On the quality or lack off FF assessment. After I got qualified my parents on the Gold Coast got a call from FF and made appointment. Now I had planned on doing the assessment my self on my next visit.

    But as an FF assessor was going to do it. I figured it would be a good opportunity to see how a (un)professional organisation does it.

    So I flew to GC and watch the FF assessor wipe through a three bedroom rumpus, granny flat in all of 27 minutes.

    At the end I started to question her. It ends up that he fills 90% of the Spreadsheet in in the evening at home. So I question him further to see what he could remember.

    Well 5 minutes after finishing she could not even remember which how many toilet or bedrooms. I got him to should me the spreadsheet. He had put in ducted air con even though there was no air conditioning in the house at all. My parents had two rain water tank and she put down none.

    To be honest she was quite upset and almost in tears. She was going to be late for the next appointment at the Tweed Heads. I told her not to worry and let her go.

    I mention this to FF, ABSA and the Green Loans call centre. The boss at the call centre, FF and ABSA just said they would look into it and get back to me.

    No one ever got back to me.

    Mandatory Disclosure Proposal
    -----------------------------

    Also I am trying to help assessors in NSW put together submissions to the NSW Government to get the same Assessment program started in NSW as ACT.

    The minister is keen to get submission form the public. I have never don this before so how do we get a proposal put together that either describes the ACT system or says copy the ACT.

    As I suspect the Assessment program put in place will go the same way is the Sydney Bus and Train ticketing system. Millions spent and all the public got was ticket with new colour and logos.

    When they could of just copied Brisbane's excellent ticketing system. By the way China has a universal paperless bus and train ticking system in every province. If the China can do it we should be able to.

    If we can get a submission in then at least we have a chance of the dumb ass's state government getting it close to right. I am not a fan of the stupid bureaucrats in the NSW state government.

    You can email me on jacksoncaldwell@gmail.com

    Kind Regards

    Jackson
    0415070426

    Posted Wednesday 2 Jun 2010 @ 12:20:37 pm from IP #
  9. swanning_it

    swanning_it
    Member

    May I suggest something here?

    Perhaps some of the problems we have with our reports, is that education levels have dropped and does not encourage people to be grammatically correct anymore. Text is abreviated via SMS (I have trouble understanding it at times) and even the local newspaper has effectively discontinued the "Letters to the Editor" and replaced it with SMS messages, most of which I find hard to even understand the message!

    Please don't get me wrong, here. I don't believe I'm perfect with spelling and punctuation (in fact I know I'm woeful), but basic facts can be distorted by contradictory wording. For an example, take Jacksons post above.......Jackson (perhaps rightly) complains that his/her parents assessor failed to correctly enter the facts, yet from that post, I've got no idea whether that assessor was male or female. Jackson refers to both, repeatedly in different paragraphs. Transgender perhaps? Or is it a simple case of not being careful with clearly and concisely detailing the facts? Mistakes and discrepancies like that is at least part the reason why a report can be inaccurate. Learning to be precise is part of being a good assessor.

    Posted Wednesday 2 Jun 2010 @ 9:11:43 pm from IP #
  10. rockabye

    rockabye
    Member

    I agree that Jackson's post switches gender a couple of times but the essence of his message is clear. Paying for a professional job does not necessarily mean you get one. He certainly raises some valid issues. I have heard from many people I talk to that staff who deliver the climate smart program are turning up with a very poor understanding of what they are trying to achieve.

    Perhaps it would have been better if they had just gone ahead and installed the CFL globes, showerhead and wireless meter and left a properly researched information pack for the homeowner to read. I know from personal experience that trying to explain some of these new ideas verbally to people can be quite difficult.

    The problem as I see it is that the assessors are getting on-the-job training at your expense. The lady or man concerned will probably get quite good at the job after enough trial and error jobs. I know when I changed jobs several times in my career that I was never sent out without an experienced staff member until I was considered competent in the job I was doing. Of course in today's cost cutting world that luxury of having sufficient staff to do a job properly is getting to be a rare thing.

    Posted Wednesday 2 Jun 2010 @ 10:36:24 pm from IP #
  11. Frateco

    Frateco
    Member

    rockabye, most experience gained is at the customer's expense unless as you say, there is a mentoring process in place. There also is a fundamental flaw with the program in that many of the assessors are not even knowledgeable about houses, physics or even building parameters. I can only speak of my own experience seeing a kid fresh out of high school attend the course where he could not get his head around the house plan in the exercise. What he stated as answers really was quoting what the presenter had said.

    I am sure he will gain experience with each job but what damage will he do to this industry before he's 'experienced'? Like Jackson's case, someone not well-trained means a job poorly done and word-of-mouth is the best and worst promotion.

    Posted Thursday 3 Jun 2010 @ 2:45:14 am from IP #
  12. Buzzman

    Buzzman
    Member

    Had a chat with one of the guys from the NSW NABERS program yesterday, and according to what he told me, the State and Territory Ministers have agreed to use the NABERS rating system nationally for the Commercial Mandatory Disclosure scheme.

    But it's in the Fed Parliament right now so no doubt there will be an announcement soon.

    Posted Friday 18 Jun 2010 @ 2:39:28 am from IP #
  13. lillypilly

    lillypilly
    Member

    Hi, I just looked at the NABERS website and did the self assessment which asks is what how many kWh, MJ and kL we used over the last 12 months - we got 5 stars for energy and water but that is almost certainly behavioural not anything much to do with our house. I am assuming that a mandatory assessment required before a sale will be about the house rather than the occupants behaviour.

    Can I ask someone who knows about the NABERS assessments if there are any points given for having solar hot water, rain water tanks connected to the laundry/toilet and PVs etc or does it only consider things like the building fabric and how much insulation it has? And I would assume in a sensible world the last 12 months worth of bills wouldn't be considered but are they??

    LP

    Posted Saturday 19 Jun 2010 @ 11:24:57 pm from IP #
  14. alfresco24

    alfresco24
    Member

    The substance of these rating assessments is arriving at a number which represents how much energy is required to condition a premises in order to be comfortable, all done very scientifically, or at least as well as the scientific knowledge allows them.
    For example you might assess a building as having an annualized energy input of 50MJ per Sq Mt to keep it conditioned, and depending on location that might be 4 star, 4.5 star, etc.

    The actual amount of energy used is however also a function of human behavior. As a tenant you would need to assess your numbers again after a suitable baseline has been established to determine if your own performance is better or worse than the original assessment. Of course other factors such as the equipment and people 'heat loading' then come into play as well.
    A poorly set up commercial space can ruin a great star rating.

    Overall the mandatory disclosure is a good comparative tool, but it's no guarantee of actual operating energy requirements.

    Posted Tuesday 22 Jun 2010 @ 3:35:37 am from IP #
  15. Buzzman

    Buzzman
    Member

    LP
    As I understand it from what has been published so far by COAG, RBMD will definitely NOT include any info or stats on "occupant usage" but will be more HERS rated - so it is the building envelop and systems that will meet an artificial 'benchmark'.

    Houses getting closer to the benchmark will be seen as better, but as we all know, behaviours are what drives up (or down) consumption levels, and the smae house with two different householders could use more or less energy.

    It's a start, but still a long way to go.

    Posted Saturday 3 Jul 2010 @ 8:29:05 am from IP #
  16. billy-joe

    billy-joe
    Member

    I am a Carpenter currently dong my Cert IV in Construction (Builders License) in NSW.
    New TAFE courses start in four weeks time to gain the relevant qualifications to do the energy assessments under a new criteria. I am planning to do the course myself. I don't know the exacts of the course as yet. But will post for anyone in NSW interested. Supposedly it will cost around $900.... sorry but i don't have any more info than that at the moment.

    how much were the courses in other states to gain the relevant qualifications to carry out the assessments?

    Posted Tuesday 3 Aug 2010 @ 2:00:44 am from IP #
  17. Buzzman

    Buzzman
    Member

    billy-joe
    Post away, dude!! What's the score?

    Posted Tuesday 3 Aug 2010 @ 8:22:49 am from IP #
  18. GreenJill

    GreenJill
    Member

    I am an Energy Assessor in the UK and it is interesting to read the issues you have there. All properties being sold or rented in the UK also need an Energy Performance Certificate. There are 2 different types of assessor - those that work off-plan measuring up the drawings for new-build to comply with Building Regulations (me), and domestic assessors that visit the houses and fill in forms based on what they can see, and what the current owner tells them. Their assessment includes type and thickness of walls, insulation in loft, windows, heating system (not a lot of Air con here!- it is summer and currently 18 deg C), how many low energy lights and renewables if any.

    However, the result can only be as good as the information provided by the owner and what the assessor can see and measure.

    All assessors have to be accredited by NHER, but the exams are not degree level. A good understanding of buildings/construction and an aptitude for maths and attention to detail are necessary requirements.

    Our houses need to keep the heat in, so good insulation and well-sealed envelope is very important, and I have to be able to make recommendations to builders pre-construction.

    My son is currently in Australia, so I listen to 2CH Sydney which has been advertising government grants for 1.5kw pv units for $2950. If this is correct, you are so lucky. We get payback for any units produced, but no grants. The equivalent would cost us at least £12,000 (A$20,160)

    Posted Friday 13 Aug 2010 @ 9:10:58 am from IP #
  19. robert

    robert
    Member

    Green Jill in Australia the Home Energy Assesors did a 4 day course,I am not sure if there was a pass or fail at the end of doing there course,is it the same in the UK ?

    Regards
    Robert

    Posted Wednesday 18 Aug 2010 @ 9:01:07 am from IP #
  20. Frateco

    Frateco
    Member

    The only pass/fail was if you didn't attend the course. The "exam" was a joke since all you needed to do was basically quote out of the manual given and it was open book.

    Posted Thursday 19 Aug 2010 @ 12:05:22 am from IP #
  21. robert

    robert
    Member

    Frateco thank's for your reply i have been searching everywhere as i have read about the green loan scheme and i have never in my life in any Industry know off how people can do a 4 day course and then become qualified to go out and work and earn a wage.I assume these qualified people will be the same bunch of home energy assesors when Green Start commences?
    This Industry needs a few things.

    1.A Certification course fully tested perhaps 6 months studying and a pass/fail on all modules and not an online course.

    2.No reliance on the Goverment to run the scheme it must be privatley run where assessors advertise and charge the public as in what services they can promote and do,at a rate they think they deserve.

    Posted Thursday 19 Aug 2010 @ 9:03:21 am from IP #
  22. Frateco

    Frateco
    Member

    Robert, I did the Green Star Professional Accreditation course (Green Building Council of Australia). 4 day course but you then had to pay $150 to do a multi-choice closed book exam. If you fail (under 85%), you pay again and resit to do a different multi-choice closed book exam.

    What you are proposing is a licence class like the building industry with possibly an apprenticeship scheme. Do a course, submit your experience and be classified as to what level you can operate at?

    Posted Thursday 19 Aug 2010 @ 9:14:34 am from IP #
  23. robert

    robert
    Member

    Frateco thanks for your response,I think all the 10,000 Home Energy Assesors trained assesors ,yes a lot of these people are uncontracted need to be tested or subject to some kind of testing/slash training,4 days of training does not cut it to me and many seemed to have slipped into what can be such a positive Industry in the future,This post will upset some with great education in home and building design etc,But i do think having 10,000 4 day trained people out there is pure madness.

    Then once they attain a standard and have certification they will be better of to go private to help the Australian Home Owner in reducing there electricty costs and no reliance on the tax payer as in going private.

    Posted Friday 20 Aug 2010 @ 9:53:16 am from IP #
  24. GreenJill

    GreenJill
    Member

    Robert, Yes we had to do a 4 day course with an exam at the end of it (closed book multi choice as per Frateco), and a housetype off plan under exam conditions together with 5 typical housetypes off-plan to be submitted for accreditation afterwards. Bearing in mind I work off plan for new-build (OCDEA - On-Construction Domestic Energy Assessor) rather than visiting properties for a visual rating.

    I don't know what the costs are, as I work for the National House Building Council who provide a service for builders and SOLO (individuals building for themselves) from inspection through Design SAP ratings and Building Control to Newbuild Warranties, Air Leakage testing and EPCs, and the Accreditation was done through them.

    My work is audited regularly also - a couple of samples at random every month.

    Posted Tuesday 24 Aug 2010 @ 8:01:14 am from IP #
  25. Tony C

    Tony C
    Member

    Robert I have to agree with you about improving the quality of people that conduct sustainability assessments. I am a Green Loans Assessor and I did my 4 day course (in 3) with a multi guess open book exam.

    I have worked in the construction industry for many years and gained a lot of knowledge from that. Many Green Loans assessors have NO prior knowledge or experience, this should be stopped before Green Start (or any other program).

    There has been talk about a Cert 4 course in the future but it was to be paid for by the government, I cant see that happening now. I believe the green collar sector will develop but we need experienced and qualified people.

    Posted Tuesday 24 Aug 2010 @ 8:47:36 pm from IP #
  26. Buzzman

    Buzzman
    Member

    As a fellow assessor I concur with Tony C. The 4-day course was a joke - bare minimum of info and an open book exam. I leraned nothing I hadn't already taught myself. No, being fair, I did learn ONE new thing - high pressure zones caused by blocking wind path to increase passive flow-thru ventialtion. Wasn't part of the building course back in 1985!

    Like Tony I also have a background in the construction industry, both residential and civil, local and international.

    In the beginning of the Green Loans program, there WAS a requirement for "industry experienced" people to become assessors. This was dropped when the take-up rate was too low, and the flood gates opened.

    It is widely accepted that that single decision is what stuffed the GL program.

    Many of the less trained (or let's face it, 'money focused') "assessors" dropped out of the running when the daily/weekly numbers restrictions were placed on assessors back in March. At a max of five per week for a total billing of $1000, not many could afford to stick it out, and the smarties who had been billing $3-7K per week prior to this soon realised it was no longer an 'earner' and disappeared.

    But alas, the way the Green Start scheme has been promulgated, as a grant scheme, has meant that a lot of small, independent assessors have not bothered to apply, and it appears likely that most of the Green Start assessments will be completed by larger companies employing qualified assessors on a lower pay rate than the Green Loans scheme.
    Some of these larger companies are less than scrupulous, so there is a likelihood of further rorts.

    Ultimately, there will be a Cert IV in Sustainability Assessment - the CPSIC is in the 'pre-testing' phase of curriculum development as I write, so once finalised and approved and made available to training providers (such as TAFE) then it will become the standard, and most existing assessors will (probably) have to be re-trained, hopefully with 'prior knowledge' provisions.

    It's interesting to note GreenJill's comments about what happens in the UK. We are heading for the same scenario here, with what she does currently being covered by the HERS assessors operating under the NatHERS training and using second gen NatHERS software packages such as AccuRate and BersPro - they provide an energy assessment of building envelope performance by reading off the plans.

    Residential Mandatory Disclosure, agreed by COAG to be introduced from 2011, will involve residential walk-thru assessors doing what GreenJill describes they do in the UK, and which is a similar process to what an HSAS (Home Sustainability Assessment Scheme) assessor does right now - on Green Loans or soon on the Green Start program.

    Over time, such innovations as thermal imaging cameras and other non-invasive technologies will make the 'walk-thru' assessments as accurate as the 'off-plan' HERS assessments.

    There is ongoing discussion on the HSAS forum (ABSA forum) regarding the necessity to further engage with households about MANAGING the energy consumption in a building. Clearly one family with profligate habits will use FAR more energy than a more frugal family living in an identical house.

    And it is THAT component of the GL scheme which provides the real benefit, and if included under RMD, should have the same impact.

    I assessed a home yesterday where the female parent was in the habit of soaking in a 500mm deep 450L spa bath every night. And they wondered why their Off Peak power consumption was 45% of their total consumption and was costing them $130/qtr at off peak rates????

    I showed them how to measure the flow rate of the shower and demonstrated how little that would be by emptying a bucketful of water (one minute's worth) into the spa. It barely dampened the surface. She got the message that each spa bath she had was the equivalent of about 30 showers - a month's worth of showers in each bath.
    That's the kind of value being brought to householder's by the better-trained and more knowledgeable sustainability assessors.

    So while we knowledgeable assessors decry and deplore the "training" initially provided, we do believe there is a sufficient pool of real talent building slowly in the Australian community.

    The moss is slowly shedding and the stone is beginning to roll........

    Posted Wednesday 25 Aug 2010 @ 12:00:44 am from IP #
  27. robert

    robert
    Member

    Green Jill,Tony C and Buzzman,
    Thanks for the replies and the information and content posted.
    I support this program fully but it must surley be based on well trained and qualified people,this is where i get confused reading about green loans and people not qualified to do assesments,As Buzzman posted people entering this industry should have had some form of experience in construction,building or home design etc.
    I do see a big industry tho if this is run correctly and that is having propley trained people helping not only homes but buisness across Australia saving money on power.

    And not 4 day trained assessors.

    Posted Wednesday 25 Aug 2010 @ 8:38:26 am from IP #
  28. Buzzman

    Buzzman
    Member

    Robert
    In my "course", run by a start-up "green" business proprietor whose background was in shipping logisitics (yeah, go figure), there were secretaries, sales people and clerks, with only one fellow with any 'eco' experience who was involved with water management.

    I may not know everything, but I know enough about many things - and based on my assessing experience, I know a shed-load more than the average Joe who knows seven-tenths of jack-shed.

    I find myself having to explain the utility bills to people so they understand both what is displayed and its implications.

    The household I mentioned in the PP with the bath problem - I could actually see from the bills that there was a problem, without having to ask them a single question.

    Had it turned out that they did NOT have a bath 'habit' in winter, then clearly there was something wrong with the meter, or their HWS.

    In the past I've seen bills that showed a MASSIVE increase in the Off Peak consumption, (but, due to the low cost of the OP tariff, not a huge increase in the bottom line) and, upon questioning people, was able to soon determine they had a leaking HWS - without evening getting out of my seat to go and look at it!

    It's THAT kind of knowledge that the average Joe does not have, and why the "assessment" area is becoming so specialised.

    Having said that, I am not happy with the Mandatory Disclosure requirements thus far implemented because they, like the HERS ratings, rely on the "building envelope" model to determine a rating.

    And while this is good to provide some kind of "level playing field" against which to measure buildings, it does NOT reflect the difference in consumption between two different users in the SAME house.

    And because the average Joe doesn't understand the implications of their own consumption, the ratings will be largely meaningless until 10-star homes are compulsory, including retrofits.

    But I can't see that happenming in my lifetime.....

    Posted Sunday 29 Aug 2010 @ 7:06:54 am from IP #

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