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Tips on Comparing Solar HWS Appreciated

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Started 12 years ago by Amcd
Latest reply from Greenozi

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Amcd
Member

Hi,

I am looking at replacing our 250l electric hot water with a solar hot water system. So I am about to commence the journey of collecting info to compare the available types and their suitability. I have already found this forum most helpful and informative.

Given the smoke and mirrors approach of today’s sales pitch, I was hoping to get some advice, on what points to look for in the system specifications that would help me to compare apples with apples.

I would prefer a system that has the collectors on the roof and tank on the ground.. We are 3 adults, located on the coast in central Queensland. We use either bore or rainwater, the bore water is not too bad, but we do get a calcium build up in the electric kettle and quite a lot in the bottom of the electric hot water system.

All tips and comments would be appreciated

Cheers..

Posted Sunday 10 Jan 2010 @ 6:04:39 am from IP #
Sunshine
Member

Amcd,

I would go for either the Hills or Apricus evacuated tube solar hot water systems with the Everlast stainless steel tank.
Tanks sizes are 250 litre and 315 litre.
Systems come with 22 or 30 tubes (you won't need 40 tube model).
I have had the Hills 30 tube/315 litre tank in Brisbane for 15 months for a family of 3.
Never needed to use electric boost yet.
A 20 tube/250 litre tank would be adequate if you are happy to boost on the odd occasion.
A 30 tube/315 litre tank system will basically hardly ever require boosting in your household of 3 in Qld.

Posted Sunday 10 Jan 2010 @ 11:55:31 am from IP #
Enviropoint
Member

Hello,

check out Sky Solar. these are the smallest and most powerful of all the evacauted tubes

http://www.skysolar.com.au

good luck

Posted Tuesday 12 Jan 2010 @ 10:53:18 pm from IP #
Enviropoint
Member

Hello Amcd,

why don't you check out Sky Solar for the evacuated tubes. they offer a u tube system. this sytem is smaller and more compact.

Posted Wednesday 13 Jan 2010 @ 9:21:19 pm from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Amcd

i am the importer and supplier of the Skysolar product from Italy...www.skysolar.com.au you said that you have issues with calcium build up etc due to low grade water supply , the only answer for you is a closed loop system that either has pure distilled water in it or glycol as the heat medium...an open loop system of any kind will clog up in a few short years then its stuffed.....closed loop Amcd is your only option

good luck

Posted Thursday 14 Jan 2010 @ 12:13:28 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Sunshine

i could supply you with a 315 liter stainless steel cylinder with 12 tubes for a family of 3 rather than 30....30 seems oversized to me...

i know you already have your system up and going so thats great, i have huge respect for anyone who goes solar no matter what the system but check out my website as posted above for a look at another type of solar collector tht is half the size , half the weight , and can lie as flat as 15 degrees and still remain highly effective

Posted Thursday 14 Jan 2010 @ 12:19:51 am from IP #
Sunshine
Member

Skysolar,

The reason I went for 30 tubes was to negate the use of the electric boost. System has been in for 15 months and electric boost has been turned off all that time, and hot water has always been piping hot, so all is working well.
Also, collector is installed in a not very efficient area, at a 45 degree angle facing west, and as I needed the northern facing roof for the 3kW solar pv system.

Posted Thursday 14 Jan 2010 @ 12:38:32 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Sunshine

Would you not by having such a large system for a small amount of usage have problems with dumping of water from your cylinder in summer

Posted Friday 15 Jan 2010 @ 12:39:56 am from IP #
Sunshine
Member

Skysolar,

I haven't seen any water being dumped from the manifold on the roof, occasionally see a bit drip from the tank due to expansion in the storage tank, which is normal.

Household water consumption for a family of 3 is around 155 litres per day (52 litres each), so I can't see too much being wasted.

As our system isn't located in the best position, 45 degree angle to the west, and in Brisbane summers, we have alot of cloud cover which probably helps limit the production in summer a bit.

What also helps is I run the dishwasher off the hot connection, so that helps use some of hot water each day- 22 litres..

Posted Friday 15 Jan 2010 @ 2:19:30 am from IP #
fifonik
Member

In Brisbane for family of 3 the tubes system 250L with 22 tubes is enough (I'm talking about Apricus or Hills as well). But these systems have long lifespan (10 years or more) so your family might be grow a little

Also, if you choose system with 30 tubes you'll be in better conditions during winter and when you'll have some dirt on your tubes

Just recently I requested quotes for 315L/30 tubes and 250L/22 tubes systems and the prices wasn't very different ($3850 and $3300 with installation after rebate and I'm in Brisbane as well). As a result, I've decided to install 315L/30 tubes system (I'm in process, so I have no system installed yet).

Few words about SkySolar. I haven't research about this company too much, but few things I've found a bit not good for _me_:
- Based on the company's web site, it was established at 2008. I will not choose so new company for install the expensive system with 10+ year lifespan. Who know, how long this company will exist?
- They claimed 41% more in effectiveness. However, it means 12 their tubes equal 12*1.4=16.8 non-U tubes. It looks a bit not enough for me. But 20 tubes will be more than enough. But you can think about it, especially if its the price is lower than competitors' prices.

Sorry Skysolarman, nothing personal.

Posted Saturday 16 Jan 2010 @ 11:46:12 am from IP #
GJOESQ
Member

I live in Sydney and have a 30 tube, 215 litre Apricus system since June 26 2009 and it is excellent. Cost me $1,480 after all the rebates and RECs. I used the booster for three days only in winter and one day in spring. No booster in summer as yet. Highly recomended!

Posted Saturday 16 Jan 2010 @ 12:22:53 pm from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

fifonik

its ok to be cautious in your opinions no problem but they should be based on a certain amount of fact as well , my company is globally linked and i personally have 25 years experience in the solar industry....after spending a small fortune in licensing to AS2712:2007 we have no intention in going anywhere ..

You say 12 tubes is not enough compared to 22 Apricus or Hills tubes...this is the whole point of why i sell Skysolar tubes...you are wrong in your assumption..CPC(reflector) technology has been in Europe for 30 years plus and only new down under in the last 5 years so i understand your lack of knowledge in this regard

The main factor is the addition of a CPC reflector added to it , the CPC reflector allows the use of 360 degrees of the tubes circumference rather than perhaps only 180 degrees at peak times(noon)of heat pipes...Skysolar returns higher RECs for 12 tubes to Apricus 22 tubes and roughly the same to Hills 20 heat pipe..Skysolar to my knowledge is the only company in Australia who offers Italian made EUROPEAN technology

Posted Sunday 17 Jan 2010 @ 10:40:52 pm from IP #
LanceTurner
Key Master

Skysolarman, while we appreciate the input, you appear to be pushing your products through our forum. This is not an acceptable practice, if you want to do this, you can take an advert out in ReNew or Sanctuary magazines. Any future posts by anyone pushing their own wares will be deleted. Sorry we have to do this, but we need to make sure that the industry doesn't start using this forum as freebie advertising, and if we allow one company to do it, we have to let everyone...

Posted Monday 18 Jan 2010 @ 12:00:30 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Hello Lance , i appreciate some control needs to be maintained for fairness but to explain the difference between one system to another does that constitute blatant advertising?..i only gave fifonik an informed answer in response to his misplaced or misinformed information..
I am new to this forum lark..please outline what you class as advertising as i am confused as to what i am aloud to do and not.

look forward to your reply

Posted Monday 18 Jan 2010 @ 12:11:16 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Lance i forgot to mention when you look through Sunshines comments throughout the forum it seems to reek of pro Hills etc..even states pricing which i have not done at any stage...like i say some clarity would be appreciated

Posted Monday 18 Jan 2010 @ 12:15:27 am from IP #
Sunshine
Member

Skysolarman,

I only comment on my experience with the Hills solar hot water system, as that is the system I have on my roof. I believe if I have a solar product on my roof, I am able to comment on it's performance, both good and bad. Touch wood, all is working well.

I only mention the price I paid for it, when forum members seek a guide on what other members have paid for similiar systems.

You offered to sell me a system, when I clearly didn't ask for one, and clearly stated I already had one working fine, and don't need one !

I agree with Lance, you seem to be interested in pushing products onto forum members, where advertising in a different medium is more appropriate.

If you click on your profile name, you are clearly a business, and businesses clearly sell products to make money.

If you look on my profile there is no website advertising products. I don't own a business, nor do I even work in the industry!

Posted Monday 18 Jan 2010 @ 1:58:33 am from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Sunshine

thanks for your comments , you are quite right you are only saying about what you know and have experience with exactly what i do..the only difference between you and me is because i am an importer my comments are seen as advertising , when you say it you are seen as sharing your experience...are we not the same.

The intention was not to sell you a system only to vdraw you to the fact with newer technology 12 or 18 Skysolar tubes is what you could have had as a comparison.

your comment regarding why you offered pricing is correct but if i had of offered a comparison price to other members it would of been seen as advertising...do you think that is fair..

I'm not the type of guy who mucks about much so i'll tell you upfront , i joined this forum to see what other Australians know about solar water heating and to see if i can help in upskilling them to the virtues of solar heating for humane reasons as well as commercial , if this is a wrong attitude then i have joined the wrong forum

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2010 @ 9:29:59 pm from IP #
Gandini
Member

Skysolarman,

Thanks for the lively discussions with forum members. I’m not worried about anyone who “tells us” about their own system or systems they sell (freebie advertising) because in a forum situation all information is open to comment and queries and it's up to each person to form their own opinion about claims that A is the best.

Some questions ---

1. I could not find Sky Solar systems on the ORER register of solar water heaters under Sky Solar or Alpha Energy Australia - the name mentioned on the Sky Solar website. Are these systems eligible for RECs and if so, under what name?

2. Why does the Sky Solar U tube system need fewer tubes than heat tube systems? Is it because of (a) the U tube configuration or (b) the CPC reflector? If (a), wouldn't other U tube systems such as Solar Lord and Suntrap be comparable with the Sky Solar system? If (b), could reflectors also be used with heat tube systems?

3. How important is the CPC reflector? The reason I ask is that it will only reflect light that passes between tubes. In the case of a set of tubes facing due north, the amount of light passing between the tubes would highest during the middle part of the day and would decrease as the sun rises towards and falls from its highest point in the sky.

4. Who makes the Sky Solar stainless steel tanks? There does not appear to be a manufacturer mentioned on the website.

5. How does the Sky Solar system cope with overheating in summer? Does it have an air (steam) release valve (eg Caleffi valve) like Hills and AAE systems?

6. How does the Sky Solar system cope with low temperatures in winter - does it circulate water through the U tubes like heat tube systems circulate water through the manifold?

7. I'm not sure about comments on the website that the U tube system can be installed at inclinations as low as 15 deg from the horizontal as that would give poor winter performance and increase the likelihood of overheating in summer. Inclining tubes (and flat panels) at or a bit less than latitude plus 23 deg (about 57 deg for Sydney) would maximise winter performance (so that they are perpendicular to the sun at its lowest point in the sky) and reduce summer overheating.

Posted Thursday 11 Feb 2010 @ 9:40:01 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

I've got this great system on my roof that I had installed last year. I imported it myself from Italy.
The guy who makes them, Guido, he's a former hydraulic engineer with Torino Water Authority.
It's a tube system like so many others, but utilises a secret process he will not reveal with which he coats the underside of the tubes and the reflector underneath, so that it is as close to 100% efficient as it is humanly possible to get.
It cost me 1500 bucks, and as my brother is a plumber I got him to install it.
Touch wood, have not needed the booster (it's on off-peak) and have not yet run out of hot water, despite recent rain on the mid-North Coast.
The tank is 450L, single element, mid-tank, and it has an Italian-made circulation pump.
And Guido's mama she makes the best coffee I have ever tasted, and I've tasted a lot of coffee.
Some people might think drinking coffee in Torino is not the same as drinkng coffee in Rome, but let me tell you, what I had was the genuine artiecle. And the biscotti! Bellissimo!
If you've never been to Torino you should go. Fabulous place. The stuff you can find, in the Sunday markets, where I found Guido and his HWS and his mama's famous coffee.
And I also found out that Torino is actually Turin! Who would have thought?
The place where all Fiats are made by little men with big moustaches and small dogs. It stands for Federazione Ingineri di Automibili di Torino. My mates always used to say it was "Fix It Again Tony".
Did I menton the HWS? Guido makes them himself, he's sort of a blacksmith. The workmanship is first class.
I can get you one if you want. They are heaps better than Apricus or Hills or that Sky Solar thing.
PM for details
Buzzski
PS: I am Russian entrepreneur living in Australia now. Great country!

Posted Thursday 11 Feb 2010 @ 12:13:38 pm from IP #
whatcouldyoubesaving
Member

Sky Solar.. I'm not entering the debate hear but what I will say is you don't mention Tasmania on your rebates page.. We are a part of Australia. I know we are not included on the 7pm project. Most FMCG competitions and generally forgotten all over the place.. But we do produce 100% of our electricity from water and even export to Victoria. We are the only state in Australia that has a real potential to be carbon neutral.. IE Vehicle emissions vers Carbon uptake by trees. Hydro Power. Roaring 40s Wind Farms...Environmental and population balance.......The list goes on..

Were down here.....Don't forget us...........

Posted Thursday 11 Feb 2010 @ 1:33:14 pm from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

whatcouldyoubesaving

Thanks for your comments , i found the stats you presented about Tassie staggering actually..well done . Tassie is not mention on the rebates like Qld or NT isn't only because we do not have distributors there..no other reason.

Posted Tuesday 16 Feb 2010 @ 9:35:33 pm from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Buzzman

your username descibes the content of your post to me perfectly..too much coffee mate , try some water for awhile.
good luck

Posted Tuesday 16 Feb 2010 @ 9:37:01 pm from IP #
Skysolarman
Member

Gandini i will answer your post numericaly as you have set out...great post by the way

1)Only had confirmation today after a 7 month wait that the new list will be posted on the ORER website in about 2 weeks.
2)Its a combo of all that you describe , good quality tubes , high level of Sputtered aluminium nitrate on the inner tube , low heat loss , CPC reflector(Compond Parabolic Concentrator)precision welding of pipes as to not interupt flow rate..IE no burrs on the inside of pipes , U pipe system has more surface area to be physically heated with the aid of CPC as well.The tubes are spaced far enough apart on the collector to allow absorption and reflection under the tube from sunrise through to sunset
2a)kloben the company i import the collector from in Italy had a heat pipe system such as what i display on my website with a tank like solahart etc with CPC..they discontinued with the CPC , the system with CPC and heat pipe was too volatile
3)The shape and curvature of CPC allows you to use 360 degrees of the tube therefore if i had 12 tubes i am using the full 12 tubes 360 d. and not the top 180 degrees such as heat pipes and flat [plate panel..in effect 20 heat pipes you are only actually using 180 degrees which is the equalentof 10 whole pipes
4)Skysolar uses Everlast tanks manufactured in Melbourne
5)Not a fan of AVV cause more trouble than what they were designed for , they end up being a steam valve and not an air admittance valve , i recommend to use a Cold water expansion valve on the cold water inlet
6)Correct
7)Your comments are correct , i am not saying that this is my recommendation only saying the point that it will still work to a degree even when pitched so low because of the CPC , theoretically you could lay the collector out on the ground outside flat and to some degree in the winter it would still work . Throughout the summer months there is lots of irradiation available so my belief is you maximise the size of your cylinder and solar bank to maximise usage through these key months and take what ever is offered in the winter..set up for moreso summer and not winter where usage for that time is high.

Posted Wednesday 17 Feb 2010 @ 12:16:06 am from IP #
Flo
Member

Hi everyone,
I'm in the process of planning a new home in coastal NSW, want to have solar hot water, but am unsure as to which system to use: Apricus or Sky Solar. I've read very informative posts regarding Apricus, but nothing about Sky Solar except from the supplier. Does anyone have this system so could shed some light?? The technolgy sounds great, and the idea of using less roof space is very appealing, as I'll also be installing a PV system. Some non-biased input would be greatly appreciated!

Posted Wednesday 24 Feb 2010 @ 6:13:14 pm from IP #
fifonik
Member

2 Skysolarman:
For academical reasons I tried to find any comparation between U-tubes based system with CPC (like SkySolar) with "typical" tubes systems (like Hills or Apricus) and... I couldn't. Have you seen such a comparations with graphs and numbers?

Thank you.

Posted Friday 23 Apr 2010 @ 12:55:11 am from IP #
Gandini
Member

Differences in the "efficiency" of different SHW systems (eg how many tubes you need for heat tube or U-tube systems, or for Apricus or AAE or Hills systems) are probably only important if you have limited roof space. From a consumer point of view, isn't the cost the most important issue?

Posted Friday 23 Apr 2010 @ 9:11:25 am from IP #
fifonik
Member

From my point of view not only the cost is important. For example, if I would like to install HWS + PV system the footprint of HWS could be very important because it automatically reduces the size of PV system which might be installed nearby.

Cost is also very important, but what should we include in 'cost'?
Sometime installation cost is the only important. Sometime maintenance cost is also very important.

For example, I don't want to remove leaves every 2 weeks from the CPC for the following 10 years. How should I calculate cost of all these works?

Posted Saturday 24 Apr 2010 @ 12:41:31 am from IP #
Gandini
Member

What I was getting at was that if a 15 tube U-tube system is equivalent to a 22 tube heat tube system, the U-tube system would be more efficient on a per tube basis. However, if the heat tube system is cheaper then surely that's the one to go for, regardless of issues such as cleaning leaves off the reflector.

Posted Saturday 24 Apr 2010 @ 3:12:03 pm from IP #
Buzzman
Member

Skysolarman
My tongue in cheek previous post was not the result of 'too much coffee', but rather was designed to highlight the fact that any Tom, Dick, or Harry can claim anything they like, but unless they are able to back it up with reliable, quantifiable, meaningful, scientific data, they might as well claim they can make gold from lead.
I have looked at your website, Kloben's site, and Kloben UK's site and all I can find are unsupported claims and gobbledegook "pseudo science".
As the old adage says: "show me the money!"
If you are going to base your 'claims' on the kW energy equivalent produced by the Kloben system, then you need to point us towards the same measurements for competitor systems in order to 'prove' yours is 'better'.
On the surface, the reflector system and the U-tube idea has merit, so I am happy to be convinced.
Perhaps, in the interests of science, you could set up one of your 12-tube systems next to an Apricus (or Hills, or both) and MEASURE the temperature, insolation etc etc etc and provide an ACTUAL comparison that potential customers can read, and believe.
Till then, I'll buy my gold from an accredited assayer.....
.....and keep a firm hold on it!
No offense!

Posted Sunday 25 Apr 2010 @ 6:14:49 am from IP #
gully
Member

Buzzman: Need to convince Choice to do a round-up of all the solar hot water systems on identical houses... might be hard to do!

I'd say 30 tubes for 3 (to 4) people is accurate.

Skysolarman: If you know your business and know your competitors, you know that
30 evac tubes is not oversized in the industry. I know plenty of dealers who would say '12 tubes is way too undersized - you'd be wasting your money'.

I have to say, the reflector benefit seems logical, but i'd argue if you have a zincalume corrugated roof then you pretty much have one under the tubes anyway. Water running through the tubes would suggest you have to decommission the whole system to replace/remove tubes. Also menas you've got 12 more places water can leak out of.

In the past if something advertises it's 'twice' as efficient as the nearest competitor and it's cheaper or comparable, it's usually too good to be true. I'll try to keep an open mind though!

Posted Wednesday 5 May 2010 @ 5:20:31 am from IP #

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