What do you look for when shopping for solar? « Alternative Technology Assn Forums

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What do you look for when shopping for solar?

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Started 12 years ago by Sonofdadska
Latest reply from Isildae

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Sonofdadska
Member

I'm pretty much new here but I have been reading through a lot of posts, and I'm just curious to know what people look for when they are shopping or have shopped for grid-connected solar. I've noticed that a lot of people have been mentioning various prices on here for various systems, but generally have not elaborated on anything other than the peak rating (2.0kWp or 3.0kWp etc)

So what do you look for?

Do people care purely about the peak rating?
Or the kWh generation?
Or the type of technology used?
Or the country of origin of the panels/inverters?

What sorts of questions will determine where your $$$ goes?

Posted Sunday 27 Dec 2009 @ 8:48:15 am from IP #
kalindriel
Member

Hello,

I am not an expert. I think that the rating of the system is just a tool to work out what your generation is. Thats what you really want to know. You find out what the likely generation is going to be for your roof, in your suburb, and then work out that if you buy an X kw system you will generate Y KW per day. This is what I used to work out the financials as to what would be a good cost benefit system.

The problem is that you get what you pay for. I have heard tell of quotes for solar systems from 0$ to 6 or 7K after the rebates.

There are cheap panels and expensive panels, good cheap ones, bad cheap ones and expensive ones that are not actually worth the extra money, there are good inverters and bad inverters. And i am told that there are inverters that work better with some panels or another.

I would say that if you are starting out, you should be looking for an installer/ supplier who knows their stuff and who you find trustworthy. I would prefer to have an installer who is also the supplier (or have a direct relationship with the person installing the panels, because i have heard that if things go wrong, there are issues getting someone to fix it, if you go through a big company who outsource their installs. ) Also an installer who manages the whole process right up till you get your first credit means that you wont get abandoned half way through and left to figure the rest out yourself.

If someone gives you a quote without seeing your roof, in the flesh and doesnt offer to come out (installer, not sales person) and see it before they give you the proper quote, i'd keep looking. You dont want the installer to come out and add a few thousand to your quote because the meter isnt what they expected or ... whatever.

You also want someone who gives you a proper quote. with solar data estimates for *your* roof. not the standard roof in Australia / your state / your suburb. Its no point coming up with figures based on the Aus average. It just wont be accurate.

If you can find an installer who seems to know what they are talking about, and who you trust, I would then be guided by them as to what system best suits you and your needs and your budget. ( I think its good to ask really tricky questions to find out whether or not someone knows their stuff, ie about whether north is true north or magnetic north (true),what the situation with tax is - no one seems to know for sure, but a good installer has probably thought about it etc.)

Posted Thursday 7 Jan 2010 @ 4:16:42 am from IP #
kalindriel
Member

Also, remember to consider your plans as to how long you will stay there. If you are retired and in your forever home, then you have a much more flexible time frame for payback, as compared with young people in their first home (who may need to move to start a family.)

Posted Thursday 7 Jan 2010 @ 4:42:49 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

I ended up going with the first company that contacted me, they were on site in less than 24 hours. They were happy to listen to my ideas, and gave me some good tips on how to set out the panels. I also went and saw a local set of panels they had installed.

I did a lot of searching on the web as to what type of panels etc, would do what I wanted of them, and for a reasonable price.

One company didn't want my business, a 4.9kw system, because it was less than 10kw, despite saying that they did small installations on their web site. Many of the others I contacted gave me a long estimate on when they could come out and do an on site quote.

I am hoping to see the panels installed this month, maybe then I will have a different view on the integrity of Todae Solar!

Posted Thursday 7 Jan 2010 @ 8:01:10 am from IP #
cool at home
Member

I'm really struggling with this question. Have 5 quotes in hand for a 3kW system - different panels (and panel types), different areas of the roof deemed the most appropriate, different average and peak generation rates given for apparently the same type/size/located system. How do I know who to trust? It is a big investment that we have pondered for many years - we thought the new feed in/60c per kWh tariff (NSW) made it a relatively 'easy' decision at last, and now we're feeling all at sea again. How do we find our way through this stuff?

Also, hadn't even thought of having to pay tax on the credit for power production. Does anyone know the definitive answer to that one?
Susan

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2010 @ 12:17:39 pm from IP #
Sunshine
Member

cool at home,

I would recommend at looking at the manufacturer's website, find out the origin of the panels and inverter, and how long they have been making them for etc.
Some of the Chinese manufacturers that I have looked up, have been making panels for only several months, so if you are making a big investment, it's your call, but somehow I put my faith in companies that have been around a big longer than that.
The new Chinese manufacturers may well produce good equipment, but if it hasn't been out there installed in the real world, there really isn't enough time for any issues to raise their head and be modified/rectified.
Also, another big point, for my system, I chose panel and inverter manufacturers which have a local office in Australia, so if you have a warranty issue further down the track, and the installation company has folded in the meantime, then you are able to contact the manufacturer's office in Australia, rather than trying to make a claim internationally.
In my opinion with the cost of shipping panels internationally, it would hardly be worth claiming if you had to do so.

Posted Tuesday 19 Jan 2010 @ 8:39:34 pm from IP #
ando
Member

Russell Moore
Im thinking of signing with todae also for a 10.8kw system quote $51500
with suntech 180w(60) panels & sma invertor
let me know how you go
Ando
anyone know about the reliability & life of thin panels(amorphous)kaneka

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 1:15:59 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

ando,
I am currently waiting for confirmation that the NSW gross feed in tariff will be paid even if I use two inverters instead of one. As the government reg's stand at the moment only one inverter is allowed to claim the full GFIT.
Todae was going to use an SMA sunnyboy 5000TL inverter, but there will be none in the country until late April. They then suggested I could get a Xantrex GT 5.0 to do the same job, so I was going to do that, then they said that the only available Xantrex inverters that they could access to do the job were two Xantrex GT 2.8s, so I was happy to go that way as well.
Then someone on this forum suggested that if you use two inverters you wouldn't be allowed to claim the full GFIT even if your system was under the maximum 10kw! Turns out they were right, as I had this confirmed from the relevant government dept.
Todae Solar is currently attempting to have the reg's revised so as we can go ahead NOW with the install....I am also going to have the same panels as you Suntech 180s x 28 5.04kw.
Feel free to PM me on rpmoore@internode.on.net if you go ahead with the Todae offer, and we can compare notes, so far Todae have been very helpful, but then again I don't have my system yet.... Russell

Posted Wednesday 10 Feb 2010 @ 2:48:21 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

Russell
Seems like Todae is in WAY too much of a hurry to get your dollars!!

The sensible thing to do is to WAIT until the RIGHT inverter is in the country and can be installed.

Does anyone remember waiting for something?

I lived in the bush growing up, and the shops were a once a week event at best, and the Big Smoke once a month or more.

TV blown up? Tough. Wait for a month till we can get to "Town" to shop for a new one.

This internet-fuelled instant availability thing is not healthy IMHO.

Take a chill pill. Wait a while. Y'all come back now, y'hear?

I'm being facetious of course but my underlying proposition is : "why the hurry? Why the rush?".

The GFiT will not be shut down tomorrow. What's the rush?

Ask them. They'll probably tell you they are trying to please you?

Wasting time running around like headless chickens when all you have to say is: "It's okay. I'll wait."

Try it. Freedom follows soon after.

(adapted from: Zen and the Art of Solar Installations)

Cheers
Buzzman

Posted Thursday 11 Feb 2010 @ 12:48:17 pm from IP #
Mrs Cackle
Member

Hi I am wondering what happened with Todae. I too have got a quote from them, no site visit tho, and am wondering if they are ligit.
we are looking at:
36 x 180 watt suntech panels + SMA6000TL inverter (with no MMPT?)
V's
32 x 210 Kyocera panels + Aurora inverter

Comments< thoughts or suggestions please

Posted Friday 5 Mar 2010 @ 1:18:34 pm from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

Mrs Cackle, my install was completed three days ago, with Todae, and I am very happy with it.

I eventually had a Fronius IG40 inverter installed with 28 Suntech 180 panels. I was pleased with the install, and was more than happy that Todae bent over backwards to accomodate some of my requests.

I had contacted about six companies, Todae was the only one to come on site, within 24hrs, and give a quote after seeing some of the problems I had.

Others either ignored me or gave standard online quotes without seeing the roof. One gave me the flick saying that they didn't do 5kw installs, despite saying so on their website.

Certainly the SMA sunnyboy inverter may be a fraction better than the Fronius, but SMA inverters are in short supply, and the next shipment is due in late April, so my install would have probably been in May, in that time I can produce about 720kwh, remember the gross feed in tariff in NSW is 'good' for seven years, if we are to believe the pollies.

Since the install I have three days of cloud, and was surprised at how much power you can produce, even under the cloud, but still way below the peak outputs. I would guess about a 70% drop in output. Today under some (finally) full sun at 11am EDST I saw a peak output of 4,500+ watts AC. Todays final output was 22kwh after cloud most of the morning.

My suggestion is to go with a company you feel happy with, someone who will listen to you, and will give you a good price, and has had at least 5 years of install experience or more. Remember to get at least 3 quotes before you make up your mind.

If you are in the Sydney area, send me a PM, and you could come and see my install, also see my posts on Cooling PVs on this site.

Good luck, Russell

Posted Saturday 6 Mar 2010 @ 10:05:23 am from IP #
jlh3277
Member

Hi,

I too am confused about the many different types of panels.

I am going to purchase a 3kW system and am tossing up between a Suntech system and a Sunpower system both with a Sunnyboy SMA inverter.

Does anyone know which panels are better? I have been told that the Sunpower ones are overpriced but am not sure.

Also I have been told that there are no GFIT meters for the integral energy area. I know of a few people that have their systems installed but are not grid connected.

I am happy to wait a little time but want to get moving as soon as I can.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Posted Saturday 6 Mar 2010 @ 11:32:20 am from IP #
norbert
Member

I've got SP panels and a Fronius inverter and since installation in August last year my system is running like a swiss watch.At current SP panels are some $ 8.50 per watt whereas Suntech are under $ 7.00 per watt.
So in your case you are looking at almost $ 5000.00 savings if you go with Suntech.
I went with SP as they're around for some time and are used for many big commercial systems over in the US.Suntech is now the biggest panel manufacturer in the world with it's latest Pluto panel achieving some 19% efficiency.I personally would think that you can't go wrong with either brand.I would rather make sure that the installation was done proper.I didn't go with a bulk installer but bought the panels and inverter myself (from different suppliers)and then paid a local installer to do the installation.

Posted Sunday 7 Mar 2010 @ 3:37:30 am from IP #
guy
Member

my PV system was installed mid last year with no problems or unexpected costs

i used a local company (specifically involved in PV installation) that had been going for a number of years that had been started by an electrical engineer and other people with various renewable qualifications.

my system is a 1KW system using sunpower pv cells (from the usa) and a sunny boy inverter (from germany).

the system was installed by a local electrical company (i just couldn't justify getting up on the roof in the sun and doing it myself and saving a few hundred bucks)

i got my system before the labour government pulled the rug from under from the PV installation rebate.

make sure you tell the installer that you don't want any cables running all over the roof, tell them you want some slack in the cable so it can be moved if need be and won't be prone to damage. the cables should be kept of the ceiling if possible because the cables can be damaged when people access the roof area.

the most i had to do was get up on the roof a few days later and remove some silastic that had been dropped onto the front of the cell by mistake during the instal.

recently someone has asked me on my opinion of what type of system to buy and what to look for

i told him this

use a reputable company - not a fly by night one, see how long they have been operating

what qualifications do the people running it have?

only buy a solar system that gives you most bang for your rebate - anything higher than 1KW will take much longer to pay back.

consider this....

if the government also pulls the rug on the rate being paid to current owners of solar systems then you won't lose as much money. the government might wake up one morning in three years time and decide that it will no longer honour the $0.44 per kwhr rate for example, which means the system will never pay for itself - ever. the government might also penalise PV cell system owners because they are cheating and generating their own power, they might penalise owners with bigger systems than 1KW.

use good quality solar cells and invereters with long,long warranties from compnaies that have been around for a long time. the warranty on my stuff is decades i think.

personally i wouldn't buy inverters or panles from china, few things made there last any length of time, can you really afford a throwaway 7000 dollar solar system thats going to break down in 5- 10 years. you get what you pay for.

chances are this person won't listen to me

they will buy the cheapest system by a company thats been going for no more than a year or so. they will have to wait a long time before anyone gets around to installing it, eventhough they have already paid for it. the system will probably breakdown in a few years and they will be back at square one except thousands of dollars outof pocket. there will probably be hidden costs.

oh yes

my bill per quarter since the installation is 75 dollars - not too bad at all.

Posted Sunday 7 Mar 2010 @ 5:04:09 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

jlh3277, I am in the Integral Energy area, and I have had no problems with them,(so far!), the gross feed in meter looks identical to my 28 year old standard meter, only I like to see the GFIT one whirring away.

Lets hope that when it comes times to pay up, they are fine with the 60c GFIT payment...

Russell

Posted Sunday 7 Mar 2010 @ 9:41:47 am from IP #
jlh3277
Member

guy, I agree that you get what you pay for. hence the reason for wanting a good quality panel. I don't want it to crap itself in a few years. my neighbours paid $3,000 for a 1.5kW system and alarm bells went off in my head. Not to mention the fact that their system has been installed for a few months but not grid connected, they never even had an inverter for around 1 month. They still have no idea when it will get connected.

I am looking at FROG Solutions and they will actually organise with Integral to have the meter changed over within a few days of installation.

Russell are you happy with your suntech panels? A lot of people are now recommending them to me (have had several quotes).

I know the NSW GFIT system will be reviewed in 2012 and I have read the fine print and it says that the 60/kWh tariff will be paid until 1 Jan 2017 and once you are connected and receiving the GFIT they can't take it off you (but I guess gov't can change the fine print hey!). But other than that electricity tariffs will probably reach 60c/kwh in the next few years anyway especially if CPRS or some other scheme comes into force.

I am actually in the integral area but am with Energy Australia and have contacted them re this and they said they eft the payments which will be lovely each quarter.

Posted Wednesday 17 Mar 2010 @ 3:17:18 am from IP #
Russell Moore
Member

jlh3277, Very early days yet, but the Suntech panels are working fine. The install went well. My only regret is that I didn't remove a certain tree 30 years ago!, it costs me early sun access to my panels, but hey, I love that tree.

Today will be the first 100% clear day I have had since the install two weeks ago, and I am on track for a 30kwh output day, from the 28 Suntech 180 panels (5.04kw), running through the Fronius inverter. My guess is if I didn't have 'that' tree I would be getting close to 32kwh today...

Clouds are the biggest derater of any system, bring on those sun filled days!

The review in 2012 seems to be about when they will close the entry to the 60c GFIT

Posted Wednesday 17 Mar 2010 @ 4:05:44 am from IP #
Enviropoint
Member

Has anyone got an aurora inverter?
if so, what do you think of them?

Posted Saturday 20 Mar 2010 @ 1:13:51 am from IP #
DHW
Member

Just want to suggest a site about heat exchangers for solar heating projects:
http://www.brazetek.com/products

Posted Saturday 29 May 2010 @ 7:02:40 pm from IP #
Inspector
Member

Just want to suggest SPAM!

Posted Saturday 29 May 2010 @ 9:59:26 pm from IP #
dawn167
Member

jlh3277, I don't know if you have come to a decision on which panels as yet, I too were looking at Suntech and Sunpower panels and was leaning towards the Suntech Pluto panels until I was shown this http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/suntech-stumbles-with-pluto/ which made me look at Sunpower panels even more, but there are many brands out there, is there somewhere on the web a site that compares one against the other without the manufacturers hype so one could judge apples with apples, the Sunpower 300 series appears to reads OK.

Posted Saturday 5 Jun 2010 @ 4:45:08 am from IP #
dawn167
Member

kalindriel, you mentioned that some inverters work better with certain panels! How do we find out that information as most installers buy the cheapest to pass on with a good profit, which is better SMS, CMS, Fronius, Conergy, Xantrex, Latronics etc with which panels, Suntech, Sunpower, solarfun. BP, sharp ete etc is there a diffinitive site where these details are shown or is it word by mouth? thanks

Posted Saturday 5 Jun 2010 @ 4:48:42 am from IP #
dawn167
Member

Cool at home Susan, look at http://www.energymatters.com.au/choosing-solar-panels.php

also http://www.energymatters.com.au/government-rebates/feedintariff.php and

http://www.energyaustralia.com.au/State/NSW/Residential/Products-and-services/Solar-power/NSW-Solar-Bonus-Scheme-Questions-and-Answers.aspx may help

Posted Saturday 5 Jun 2010 @ 5:23:33 am from IP #
dawn167
Member

Cool at Home, Susan
http://www.greensolargroup.com.au/index.php?url=/default/page/106 interesting

Posted Saturday 5 Jun 2010 @ 6:28:46 am from IP #
cool at home
Member

Thank you so much Dawn167... we have our panels on the roof now, but it is always lovely to have someone go to the trouble of responding very specifically. I will be sure to pass this info on to others.

Posted Saturday 5 Jun 2010 @ 8:21:13 am from IP #
dawn167
Member

Hi I am a newbie,I have read the forum replies with interest, I Live in NSW, near Morpeth in the Hunter Valley region [i](where the some of the best wines in Australia come from, also has some of the biggest/richest horse breeding areas in the southern hemisphere, and big coal mines and some of the largest coal exports to the world[/i])[which effects the greenhouse concerns]
[u]Now to business[/u].. I have read replies on this forum to many topics, I am contemplating a system of up to 2 or 2.5kw, I have so far narrowed my research to the hybrid [b]Sanyo HIP-210NKHE6 [/b]panels as I have read Sanyo solar modules using HIT technology use less space per watt and have an attractive uniform black color. The black colour would be preferred as my roof tiles are black and after seeing many other solar systems they stick out saying look at me, which I do not want, my house is an architectual designed federation style house, bright aluminium panel clips/rails etc with blue panels no way. I have read about the Suntech Pluto panels which grabbed my attention But, I heard are on the slow boat from... and are hard to get. and Sunpower panels which in the documents appear to match Suntechs claims. I would like to know if Suntech and/or Sunpower manufacture all black panels,(size, etc) I haven't seen or read any thing about black panels? on their sites. I have also read about inverters, regarding transformer and transformer less and would like to more opinions on say the best type of Inverter to get and does it necessarily have to match the output of my panel setup? say 210 watt panels * 10 = 2100watts, would that equate to a 2.5kw or higher inverter? I am looking at either Fronious IG30 or SMA 3000HF or 3000TL and have noticed the max efficiency of the 3000HF is 96% whereas the 3000TL is 97 % so it looks like the transformerless 3000TL one maybe better? But I also read that some inverters without a transformer get hotter and are prone to power fluctuations and some drop outs?
So fellow forum members I need some helpful input, many thanks

Posted Wednesday 16 Jun 2010 @ 7:39:29 am from IP #
Froglips
Member

I want to install solar power and am wondering what I need, I can only seem to find sales type sites on the Internet but want to know a bit more about it like what sort of panels I need and what I need to go with it. Trouble is with the sales people they can tell me anything as I don't have a clue on where to start. Thought it may even be possible to go to China to source some gear to cut prices???
That way they could be distributed for the cost of them??? I don't know just thoughts

Posted Saturday 19 Jun 2010 @ 3:35:56 am from IP #
Inspector
Member

Froglips:

I have a printed brochure from a Sydney Home Show last year from Solar Shop, and I found the equivalent document on their website, which explains different cell/panel characteristics...

http://www.solarshop.com.au/resource-centre/solar-technology/

While I don't necessarily support any particular solar company, at least they have information freely available on their website (which may also be available in back-issues of ReNew magazine).

To get unbiased opinions is going to be fairly difficult from anyone with a vested interest in emptying your pockets (ie: solar company salespeople). I think the best advice would likely be from installers who may work (sub-contracted) for a few solar parent companies, and have dealt with a vast amount of different equipment. Someone like myself could also offer unbiased advice, however it is limited to what I have researched, learned and experienced myself, and only inspecting already-installed systems is very different to having the experience of installing them (but the interactions I've had with many customers whose systems I have inspected has given me somewhat biased opinions of certain companies and installers).

Dawn167:

The choice of sizing the inverter with respect to the output of the panels connected to it is a touchy subject (as discussed recently on EM forum) - some think it best to underpower the inverter to allow for the peaks caused by "edge effect" (where sun emerges from behind clouds) and others believe it's better to slightly overload the inverter as the edge-effect doesn't happen often enough to gain the benefit, and also the panels are rarely (if ever) going to continuously output their maximum rating. I currently have 2.2kw of panels connected to an inverter nominally rated at 2kw (but the manual states 2.2kw max) and after about 3 weeks of datalogging I've still never seen it produce 2.2kw (datalogger records every 10 seconds).

As for transformer VS TL inverters, there's not much difference between them (perhaps a couple of percentage points in efficiency) so other factors may need to come into effect to help you decide which inverter is for you - communications/data-logging methods (some have built-in, others require expensive add-on cards), noise, outdoor/indoor, cost, warranty etc.

Posted Saturday 19 Jun 2010 @ 11:33:57 am from IP #
Gruen
Member

Sonofdadska, Coming in late here.

My choices are based on (in the following order):

- country of origin (decided a few years back that folks who make the stuff I buy really should get paid, thus China is out for me);
- price and payback time (never quite sure how long I'd be staying in the one house, so am attracted to a system that pays itself off within a reasonable time and can be paid off interest free; plus I previously could never justify paying what will be the downpayment on my yacht for such a small house and household; I know I'm a heathen, but I'm signing off the RECs too.);
- ease of installation (have dithered for years on PVs as it was all too hard and involved project managing a gaggle of authorities, installers, suppliers... ugh, life's too short. I'm going with a distributor offer as they promise to marshall all forces.);
- kWh generation (we're tiny users now and for the foreseeable so the smallest systems will be fine for us).

Type of technology used and peak ratings not factors for me. Our use is low and reasonably consistent, and will be lower once we have the heat exchange system in for heating and cooling. I'm not the least bit interested in becoming a technical expert and tend to completely glaze (perhaps, even double-glaze) over in discussions solar-technical, however I do value the opinions of others who have current systems installed and who are generous enough to share on forums such as these. I luckily have a few friends involved in the industry around the world and rely on their expertise too. I really want to set and forget... I will look at the end of the year to see how my balance is looking but there's always a good book to read, the garden to tend, and a million other things to do aside from polish up on my inverter knowledge, watch the meter pulse, etc.

Posted Monday 21 Jun 2010 @ 10:21:58 am from IP #
Anonymous
Unregistered

Hi Froglips, I dont know how many of panels would you need, because you mentioned you may come to my country to buy some panels; just for your reference, the good quality panels from a 10-years experienced module plant cost about 1.8USD per Watt now; Usually this is a CIF price, but if your quantity is too small, then you will have to pay for the shipping cost and the custom fee, which cost around 200-300USD for no more than 100pcs of modules;

some of my posts were deleted, i am not sure if it is because i am trying to promote my products, but this time i did not mention our company name and brand, just want give some references to Froglips, so please keep this post un-deleted;

Posted Friday 25 Jun 2010 @ 4:40:56 am from IP #

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