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Least bad water pipes and fittings

(19 posts) (7 voices)

Started 6 years ago by einadia
Latest reply from johnmath

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einadia
Member

We’re getting some plumbing finished off for a new house and are wondering what pipes and fittings to use. We have 2 stainless steel rainwater tanks, which are to be connected to a pump, which will be connected to the kitchen for drinking water. We’ve asked the plumber to remove the copper pipe previously laid for the above purpose and replace it with plastic pipe, as we understand that the acidity from rainwater can cause high levels of copper in water. I understand rainwater is typically pH 5.5, and becoming more acidic as atmospheric carbon dioxide increases. (Ours is pH 6).

Our plumber suggested putting what he calls “poly pipe” between the tanks and the pump, and PEX pipe between the pump and the kitchen. He’s also willing to use PVC, but the other options are easier for him (and therefore we presume cheaper for us), and don’t require solvent cement, which, if it is as bad for health as it smells, mustn’t be good for the plumbers using it.

I’ve been told by one supplier that at least one of their polyethylene fittings has Bisphenol A (BPA) in. This is an endocrine disruptor, and has been linked to obesity, infertility, heart disease, diabetes and cancer. (FOE BisphenolA_report_OZversion.pdf) Authorities in Australia, North America and Europe give it the green light for the amounts currently used, but apparently not all researchers and people concerned with health agree.

I’d like to find pipe and fittings which comply with the Drinking Water Standard (AS/NZS 4020) and have no BPA in, nor other potentially harmful substances that may leach into the water.

Can anyone give me a clear crash course on pipes and fittings and suggest what would be suitable?

Unlike many people concerned about environment and health, I’d be willing to consider uPVC, as (except for the solvent cement initially), I’m not aware of anything that leaches into the water from uPVC. I understand that there’s a risk to health of the workers making the PVC (can other plastics also harm the health of manufacturing workers?), but not to the consumer. Any comments (with evidence!) welcome.

Posted Tuesday 15 Sep 2015 @ 5:55:57 am from IP #
Diver
Member

What your plumber suggests is the best option...by far.

You are also correct about the copper pipe.

Posted Tuesday 15 Sep 2015 @ 8:02:23 am from IP #
bashworth
Member

If you want to reduce the acidity you can add some limestone chips to the tanks.

Preferably in a basket below the inlet.

Posted Tuesday 15 Sep 2015 @ 9:42:18 am from IP #
johnmath
Member

I've dropped some natural limestone rocks I picked up into each of my tanks. It brought the pH back up to near 7 and I expect also added some useful minerals to our drinking water.

One thing that is unquestionably true is that no modern chemical construct, whether considered inert or not, has been a constant companion to human evolution for the past few thousand years. I would not, and don't, run rainwater intended for human consumption through ANY plastic, uPVC or whatever.

Posted Tuesday 15 Sep 2015 @ 2:07:22 pm from IP #
Annette
Member

Is copper really that bad?

I'd prefer copper over some of the alternatives in terms of potential health effects ( though that is just based on gut feeling).

Posted Tuesday 15 Sep 2015 @ 8:41:53 pm from IP #
Morbo
Member

pressure pipe exposed to the sun will be copper anyway.

Posted Wednesday 16 Sep 2015 @ 12:14:04 am from IP #
Diver
Member

AS/NZS 3500.1:2003 SECTION 2.4.1(d) states that cold water pipes and fittings shall be protected from ambient heat. There is also a standard that states that drinking water shall not have a temperature in excess of 40 degrees C.

There are two issues with plumbing naturally acidic rainwater through copper pipes.

1. Acidic water left standing in copper pipes can cause corrosion and subsequent 'pin holing' in the pipe. Not good! Rainwater pH can be as low as 2-3 during thunderstorms and despite what some manufacturers may claim, today's copper pipe is not of the same quality as it once was.

2. The Australian Drinking Water Guidelines paper 6, version 3.1 updated March 2015 states that based on health considerations, the concentration of copper in drinking water should not exceed 2 mg/L.

https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/publications/attachments/eh52_australian_drinking_water_guidelines_150527.pdf

In major Australian reticulated water supplies, the typical copper concentration is about 0.05 mg/L.

Copper is an essential trace element found in foods and the adult daily requirement is 2-3 mg/L but it is toxic in high doses.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2010/11/24/3075218.htm

Posted Wednesday 16 Sep 2015 @ 2:40:12 am from IP #
einadia
Member

Thanks for the replies.

Can anyone tell me which pipes and fittings do and don't have BPA in?

Diver, you said "What your plumber suggests is the best option...by far." Why use PEX pipe in one place and "poly pipe" presumably (HDPE?) in another?

Bashworth, where do you get these limestone chips? I started looking on the internet for them, and it got a bit confusing, with not much useful info, and a suggestion from an American website (to do with aquaria I think) that limestone chips could have harmful contaminants in. And can anyone better at chemistry than me calculate what weight of limestone you'd have to put in to a 15,000L tank to raise the pH from 6 to 7. Also, how often do you have to change the chips? Don't they get used up eventually? There's a debate on another forum about the quantity of chips you'd need. It got a bit antagonistic, and didn't resolve the matter to my satisfaction.

Johnmath, what weight of rock did you add to each tank, what's the capacity of the tank, what was the pH originally and how long did it take to raise it to 7?

Morbo, what do you mean by "pressure pipe exposed to the sun will be copper anyway"? Do you mean that the only type of pressure pipe that can cope with sunlight is copper? Most of our pipes and fittings will be underground, except for the bit coming out of the tank, and the bit going into and coming out of the pump. We were thinking of painting the pipe/fittings exposed to the sun with white paint.

Posted Wednesday 16 Sep 2015 @ 5:32:52 am from IP #
johnmath
Member

I picked up some limestone rocks about a kilogram or two each over on Kangaroo Island from selected bushland locations where I thought the limestone would be unspoiled my manmade contaminants. I put a single large rock in each tank. My tanks range from 1000 to 3000 litres. I put the bigger rocks in the bigger tanks.

The limestone rocks will of course not be pure limestone, but that's half the reason for using them. Humans have evolved drinking water that has come off the ground as part of their diet for many, many millennia. The last think we need is 'pure' water without the mineral content, and for that matter the bacterial and viral content necessary to stimulate the immune system, particularly in childhood years.

Our drinking water comes from a galvanised tank with no "food grade" plastic lining (an oxymoron!) through copper pipes and brass fittings only and no lead soldering. I am sorry to say I do have poly pipe for the tanks that are only used for washing and flushing.

The water's pH had risen from 6.2/6.4 to 6.8/6.9 a day or two after I chucked the rocks in. That's the pH of the water coming out of the taps inside the house which feed off a network of all of the tanks.

The limestone rocks will diminish in size over time as they are dissolved by the process that is reducing the water's pH (taking out the dissolved CO2). I expect the rocks in my tanks to last for years, but I haven't checked them or the water's pH since I put them rocks in a year or so ago.

Just because a plastic is BPA free, it does not mean it is phthalate free. And pretty much ALL plastic comes from non-renewable fossil oil reserves. I try not to use or buy plastic for any purpose whatsoever these days.

Posted Wednesday 16 Sep 2015 @ 8:40:06 am from IP #
Diver
Member

einadia said:

Diver, you said "What your plumber suggests is the best option...by far." Why use PEX pipe in one place and "poly pipe" presumably (HDPE?) in another?

Blue stripe poly pipe is the usual choice between the tank and the pump because the fittings are readily available and easy to use. Blue stripe poly is measured as an outside diameter, the 25mm is commonly used but the internal diameter is closer to 20mm.

Pex is easier to use after the pump because it is thinner walled and more flexible.

Off topic but just a mention...a common mistake I see is when the suction hose is plumbed to a 90 degree elbow fitted to the pump. The suction hose should respect at least x8 the pipe's (internal) diameter as a straight length before the pump's suction side.

Posted Wednesday 16 Sep 2015 @ 11:13:56 am from IP #
johnmath
Member

Out of curiosity I had a look in my 3500 litre tank today and the limestone rock I threw in there a year ago does't seem to have diminished noticeably in size. I guess it will be good for a few years yet. The pH from the kitchen tap measured at approximately 6.5. From the tap on the tank which is close to the rock inside the pH is 6.9.

Posted Thursday 17 Sep 2015 @ 4:33:50 am from IP #
bashworth
Member

Try a landscape supplier for the limestone.

I would expect 10 kg should last several years

Gravel will be a bit better than a large rock as there will be more surface area.

Posted Thursday 17 Sep 2015 @ 4:34:59 am from IP #
einadia
Member

Thanks for the replies.

johnmath, I’ve been reading about dezincification-resistant brass and I understand fittings such as taps and some PEX pipe fittings made from DR brass could have lead or arsenic in them. There’s an article (“Lead-free – an Australian perspective”) about lead in plumbing at plumbingconnection.com.au.

Re phthalates, my understanding is that they are in plasticised (ie flexible) PVC, which can also contain BPA (choice.com.au “Plastics in Food”). Have you heard of pthalates being in any water pipes or fittings?

Diver, what does the blue stripe on pipe signify?

Do both blue stripe poly and PEX comply with AS4020?

Are there any fittings for PEX pipe that don’t contain lead or arsenic?

Diver, you said “a common mistake I see is when the suction hose is plumbed to a 90 degree elbow fitted to the pump. The suction hose should respect at least x8 the pipe's (internal) diameter as a straight length before the pump's suction side.” What would be the effect of having the straight length before the pump’s suction side too short? We plan to have a T before the pump, to allow water to come from both tanks.

Posted Friday 18 Sep 2015 @ 3:09:00 am from IP #
Diver
Member

einadia said:
Diver, what does the blue stripe on pipe signify?

There are two similar types of HDPE pipe, Blue Stripe and Green Stripe.

Blue Stripe is a metric measure, that is, it is measured as an outside diameter (OD) and the 25mm Blue Stripe for example has an ID of approximately 21mm. Blue stripe is available in different sizes and a variety of pressure ratings between 800 kPa and 2,000 kPa, depending on the pipe size.

Green Stripe (often referred to as rural) is an imperial measure and is measured as an inside diameter (ID). The pressure rating is a maximum of 800 kPa.

The two different pipes use different fittings.

einadia said:

Do both blue stripe poly and PEX comply with AS4020?

Yes. Both are made from polyethylene and are certified as compliant.

einadia said:

Are there any fittings for PEX pipe that don’t contain lead or arsenic?

Fittings also have to be certified to AS/NZS 4020 compliance. Traces of lead or arsenic would be so minute as to be practically non existent.

I remember a few years ago when someone imported a range of non Australian (Chinese) certified tap ware and was selling them on a well known website. It turned out that they had lead solder but the people who bought the 'bargains' ignored the matter of non Australian certification.

Last year there was a recall of Tasmanian stainless steel water tanks because they also had lead solder.

A news article and the Government recall notice can be read by visiting the Homeone forum post below. When I copied and pasted the actual links, the articles couldn't be accessed from this site but they can be by visiting the linked thread's post.

http://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?p=1258508#p1258508

einadia said:
What would be the effect of having the straight length before the pump’s suction side too short? We plan to have a T before the pump, to allow water to come from both tanks.

Cavitation. If the connecting length of straight pipe respects 8 IDs, there won't be a problem.

I answered a Whirlpool query a couple of years ago from a person who was querying as to whether his gradual curving pump suction hose would cause problems. It turned out that he was fitting his third pump within a few years, the first two pumps had failed not long after the warranty period and the original installer had also installed the second pump.

I okayed his curved length of suction hose and it had a straight section before the pump anyway but when I asked as to whether the two previous hoses were connected to a 90 degree elbow, the answer was yes. He also use to hear the pump making rumbling noises when it was running and also observed that both pumps were badly pitted on the impeller and casing.

Posted Friday 18 Sep 2015 @ 10:53:18 am from IP #
johnmath
Member

einadia said:
Re phthalates, my understanding is that they are in plasticised (ie flexible) PVC, which can also contain BPA (choice.com.au “Plastics in Food”). Have you heard of pthalates being in any water pipes or fittings?

No I have not. Nor have I researched the topic. I now live by 'the precautionary principe'. So much health and food 'science' taken for granted in my lifetime has turned out to be bunkum. I'm back to eating butter, eggs, and eliminating the use of plastic. All of my health indicators have improved and my receding hairline has not just paused but even reversed direction.

Plastic is fast becoming significant in the diet of zooplankton. If you eat fish, it will be part of your diet soon too. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00244-015-0172-5

Oceans are where plastics go when they finally break down into micro-particles. I don't see any reason to add to the 8 millions tons going into the oceans each year. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/02/12/humans-are-putting-8-million-metric-tons-of-plastic-in-the-oceans-annually/

Posted Friday 18 Sep 2015 @ 11:20:11 am from IP #
Diver
Member

A bit further off topic but...

Plastic Oceans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwTDvqaqPlM

Posted Friday 18 Sep 2015 @ 1:09:02 pm from IP #
Oilburner
Member

Diver said:
A bit further off topic but...

Plastic Oceans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwTDvqaqPlM

I just watched that and several other vids on plastic in the ocean.

THAT was a real eye opener. I'm a bit lost for words. How in hell do we allow this to happen?
It's like we are hell bent on not only killing ourselves but the entire world and everything on it.

Posted Saturday 19 Sep 2015 @ 12:03:13 pm from IP #
einadia
Member

Diver, you said “Traces of lead or arsenic would be so minute as to be practically non existent.”

But metal importer Austral Wright’s website says their DR brass has 3.25% lead and 0.15% arsenic (http://www.australwright.com.au/c35330-dr-brass/). And an article in on-line plumbing magazine “Plumbing Connection” says there’s no safe level of lead in humans
(http://plumbingconnection.com.au/lead-free-australian-perspective/).

What does “cavitation” mean?

johnmath, although your comments about plastic in the ocean were off topic, that’s something I’ve been meaning to find out more about. Do you know what sort of plastics end up in the ocean, and how they get there? Is it mainly bits of rubbish such as plastic bags that get blown or washed into the sea? Is it only a litter problem, or do all plastics get into the ocean by breaking down into tiny particles and getting into the soil and then into the water table and then into waterways and then the sea?

I grow plants and I use polystyrene boxes that fresh fruit and veg have come in to keep the potted plants in. After being in the weather for a few years, the exposed surface of the boxes gets powdery, and after quite a few years the boxes are only about half as thick as they were originally. I don’t know whether the powder is chemically the same as the polystyrene the box was made of, or if it has changed, and I don’t know if it’s harming micro-organisms in the soil where it lands, or if it eventually ends up in the sea. And if I find some information that makes me want to stop using them, I don’t know what I could easily replace them with.

Although I think your logic on not using plastics is valid, in practice it’s hard to find suitable alternatives. If we don’t use plastic or copper for the pipes between the tanks, the pump and the house, there’s not much to choose from. I’d be happy with galvanised pipes, but I’m afraid they’ve gone out of fashion – you’re not supposed to use them for drinking water these days, and I doubt if I could persuade the plumber to use them.

Posted Monday 21 Sep 2015 @ 5:20:26 am from IP #
johnmath
Member

Pretty much all plastic ends up in the oceans. For example, I don't buy any clothes made from synthetic materials, because when synthetics are washed they break down into tiny particles that go into the sewerage system and ultimately, through outflows, into the ocean.

A few months ago I was sitting in a friend's 350 year old house in Japan and I realised there was not a single thing I could see that was made out of plastic. It really made me challenge the view that plastic is necessary in modern life - it simply is not!

Posted Monday 21 Sep 2015 @ 12:52:15 pm from IP #

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