dlvb19
Member
If you have not seen this already you will:
http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall
Off grid battery - $3000 for 7kWh ($US)
AC-DC inverter not included.
10 year Warranty
Unsure if 7kWh is full capacity or "usable" capacity, also how much capacity loss should be expected over time.
A price breakthrough or better options domestically?
Electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla has unveiled its long awaited battery storage offerings, including a “Powerwall” home battery storage systems that will sell for $US3,000 for a 7kWh system. It will offered in Australia early next year.
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/tesla-launches-home-business-and-utility-battery-storage-range-74034
johnmath
Member
This is not an endorsement, but there is ZEN based in Adelaide: http://www.zenenergy.com.au/home/energy-storage/about-energy-storage/
In 2013 the ZEN Freedom Powerbank was meant to cost $27,500 for a 20kWh capacity system, including a 5kW inverter 240Vac. I don't know if/how much cheaper it is in 2015.
They are supposed to be releasing a new model ZEN Urban Powerbank this year with 10kWh Li-ion battery, 3kW inverter and integrated backup generator for between $10-15,000.
http://www.zenenergy.com.au/home/news/horizen-summer-2014-15/new-zen-urban-powerbank-coming-in-2015/
Thought I read somewhere that these are stackable.
Be interesting to see embodied edenergy/lifetime energy storage ratio. From what I gather this is normally a factor of about ten for Li Ion. However with their efficient mass production and 100% rewewable energy manufacture, as well as recycling systems, I'm betting the Tesla batteries are far better on that front.
This price point is a huge gamechanger. It will probably go down too once the gigafactory is right up and running. The size profile of the battery looks good too. Great for small spaces, like tiny houses.
Greg
Member
Last year that same battery pack was over twice that price. Not a bad reduction over that time.
http://phys.org/news/2015-04-tesla-battery-technology-homes-businesses.html
Flying high
Member
So from what little we know so far, who's tentatively in to buy one?
Any discounts for bulk orders? 
Interesting article by Finn....
Solar Quotes Blog
Will The Tesla PowerWall let you go off grid for $3500 ?
May 1, 2015 by Finn Peacock 2 Comments
scipe
Member
The 10 year warranty is the magic, imho.
If that 7kWh is all usable, within the units warranted ability,
it would appear a couple of these would do a modest off grid
abode - Yes/No
Can multiples be employed through the required inverter/inverters
to cope with jug,toaster,stove scenario...
Final costs... ?
Interesting article here:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/05/tesla-battery-economics-on-the-path-to-disruption/
I imagine once parts of North India get above that line, costs of everything renewable will take a big plummet due to economies of scale.
Greg C
Member
$3,500 for the 10kW model. Included: battery cooling and management system, dc to dc converter??, So you need an inverter controller like the Selectronic SP Pro. How much this would cost in OZ I don't know. Can our Selectronic installer give us an idea.
The strange thing is the low continuous power delivery. Obviously there to look after the battery. How long can you draw peak? No data on that. It would cover everything in our house including the induction cooktop, If you need more for a moment I presume the inverter could get some extra from the grid. Interesting. I would hope the bits could be got for $10k. If not are we being ripped off.
Lance
Key Master
In the US SolarCity is doing a complete package of the Powerwall, inverter, control system etc, US$5000 on a 9 year lease, US$7140 outright, so pretty good pricing, see http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-01/solarcity-taking-orders-for-tesla-batteries-starting-at-5-000
The Powerwall is modular, if you need more storage capacity or more maximum power then you add another one, see http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall (scroll to the bottom).
Phil A
Member
Their web site states that one unit is suitable for one night without power. Does this mean for off grid you need 5 units for cloudy period allowances? Their example of typical appliance wattage adds up to approx. 6kw but you wouldn't expect 6kw dod on a 7kw unit surely?
It sounds like they are designed for grid use.
From memory I think the charging voltage is some weird voltage as well
I emailed them last week with the relevant questions addressed above and a few more besides. Havn't heard back as yet.
I put some enquiries into their website forms and there is only a dealer and a charging station for tesla cars in Sydney. Maybe a service contact in melb.
If you want service for anywhere else in OZ you need to call them, as the electrician needs to be specially trained...... to diagnose their units.
I wont be holding my breath. Probably two years (my guess)before they will practical down under.
Perhaps something more relevant would be to buy shares in the company that is contracted to supply the graphite for the cell construction. Use the profit to purchase some units....
If I get something useful in reply I will report back
Morbo
Member
2 years, by then something else will be cheaper. Then again, coal price falling and with it the AUD, hm.
using 3kWh a day, so one pack will do the trick. In theory. Some days the PV harvest is 1kWh, others 10. So would need 3kWh installation, which means in summer 17kWh go to waste, if I was to go off grid.
Lance
Key Master
The Tesla figures are based on average usage I expect, the runtime for one battery will be different for each installation. I expect that for many ATA forum users, for instance, 10kWh would keep them running for 1 or 2 days, possibly more.
The specified capacity appears to be usable capacity, I suspect both systems have a battery around 12kWh, which is why the "daily cycle" one is 7kWh usable and the "weekly cycle" one is 10kWh rated.
Of course, no-one will know until they become available and someone does a teardown, or Tesla release full specs of the internals, not just the user specs.
The debate is heating up, even before the launch.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2015/05/01/did-tesla-just-kill-nuclear-power/
This bit by Gundersen, a former nuclear engineer, really sends the message to other power generators in my view.
“We all know that the wind doesn’t blow consistently and the sun doesn’t shine every day,” he said, “but the nuclear industry would have you believe that humankind is smart enough to develop techniques to store nuclear waste for a quarter of a million years, but at the same time human kind is so dumb we can’t figure out a way to store solar electricity overnight. To me that doesn’t make sense.”
The bottom line is that it is a 2 part process.
“Producing our way out of the problem with renewables is half the solution. Conserving our way out is the other half.”
IAEA
Member
PowerWall specs:
Mounting: Wall Mounted Indoor/Outdoor
Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters
Energy: 7kWh or 10kWh
Continuous Power: 2kW
Peak Power: 3.3kW
Round Trip Efficiency: >92%
Operating Temperature Range: -20C (-4F) to 43C (110F)
Warranty: 10 years
Dimensions: H: 1300mm W: 860mm D:180mm
"Of course, no-one will know until they become available and someone does a teardown, or Tesla release full specs of the internals, not just the user specs." ..... what Lance wrote.
I'd specifically like full specs, and not user specs like Lance wants. Would anyone know as to capacity degradation of this battery over 10/20yrs.?
Would Gundersen know, I wonder?
IAEA
Even better still we know absolutely the effects of nuclear waste products. Deadly to humans for hundreds of thousands of years.
Gundersen is a former nuclear engineer and executive who lost his job in 1990 after reporting safety violations to his employer.
Greg
Member
An interesting spreadsheet from RenewEconomy on the effect of batteries (specifically powerwall)
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/what-the-tesla-powerwall-battery-means-for-households-61055
Download the spreadsheet.
scipe
Member
reneweconomy.com.au
****
Comparo with other technologies on $/kWh/life
****
Redflow, competing vs Tesla.
***
Sony 'cracks' 20 year battery life (!)
***
The 'grids & graphs' I have found omit the most important aspect (off grid),
RELIABILITY -
the claimed 10 yr warranty by Tesla.
Off grid kWh at any price are not worth a brass razoo if your shiny 'new' system turns out to be just another 'flattery'.
Does anyone else warrant a 'home' battery for 10 years ???
Morbo
Member
At least some movement comes into the market, just sit down and wait another 1-2 years.
Seems even at just 3kWh a day some days in Melbourne I would still need a generator to go off grid. Or put another 1kW up, some days I just harvest 1.5kWh all day. So batteries will have still to come down to make it worth wile. Plus with every new gadget there will be teething problems. Are the sparkies really up to it? Or will they fry temselves on the batteries?
Greg C
Member
Going off grid is never going to be cost effective in the city. If it ever is, time for the revolution.
Going by my rough calcs, the Excel spreadsheet mentioned above and reports from some people with hybrid systems in Renew, a 7Kw system would get us through most days, so we would be paying mostly connection fee. Payback should be under 10 years.
To put another way, cost is about the same as it cost for rainwater tanks here. Those will never be payed off, but I am still happy to have them. Therefore there will be a Powerwall or equivalent at my house within the next 2 years
Chippa2014
Member
I work for a large US company and they are keen on green. We have been talking about these units, actually about the commercial ones for our office buildings and warehouses for >12 months.
There are some very attractive financial incentives for US companies and home owners to go green... wish our government was as supportive....
Colleagues based in Atlanta and Boston are currently working with Tesla on doing a "trial" installation as these units are available, just not to the general public. I was informed this morning that Tesla have actually pre-sold something like 50000 units already... problem they have at the moment is they can't keep up with the demand and there is now a wait list....
With the $$ incentives available to myself, once there is a local distributor, (or I may just become one..???) we will most likely install 2 10Kwh units. Still waiting on confirmation I can connect our existing PV inverter to the battery packs.
For the guys doing the trial, current daily usage for each home is approx. 2400Kwh per year or approx. 7Kwh per day. Atlanta home has a 5Kw PV system and Boston home has 2 x 3Kw installations.
I was chatting with the guys this morning and it looks as though each home will require 2 x 10Kwh battery packs. When I asked about how they determined the size and how long they can survive on that amount they said the calcs they came up with meant the 20Kwh capacity will ensure that for periods of low light and bad weather (reducing the minimal input from the PV system to < 5kwh per day), they should get approx. 4 days before they need to run their generators. Both conceded that they would need to monitor their energy usage during bad weather to know if this was actually true or not... time will tell.
Install cost of the units are not anywhere near the $7,000 range but total for battery and install is just over $5200 US due to the already configured PV set up and dedicated area for the battery packs.
Both homes are energy smart and the biggest consumption of energy is their aircon, then cooking, then fridge. Obviously in extreme weather conditions energy usage can increase significantly so they are also factoring this in.
Considering energy is only going to cost more in the future, at the very least the availability of these units should help create more competition and reduce the price for battery solutions in the short term.
For us its almost a no brainer. Their size and ability to be wall mounted is why I'm interested.
We are still fortunate to be on the .52c feed in rate which means our return on the energy we feed in, we could pay off an installation of 2 x 10Kwh battery solutions in < 5 years. Much less if you factor in the fact we wont be paying anything for electricity except the connection fee...
I'll post the specs of the units I am considering as soon as I get them. Unfortunately there is a slight delay in response from Tesla due to the massive increased in demand to know more about it.
IAEA
Member
Chippa2014 states......
With the $$ incentives available to myself, once there is a local distributor, (or I may just become one..???) we will most likely install 2 x 10Kwh units.
"The installations/supply partners for Tesla Energy Australia have not been announced. We provide services, including market trading, for the Powerwall. We are working with installation partners to bring you an integrated offering. Make sure you ask for a Reposit Ready device when you place your order. Generally available from October, no indication of the quantities, we suggest they may be hard to get your hands on. Our rough guesstimation, for two 7kWh Powerwalls + inverter + installation cost, could be around $12,500 to $15,000. For one 7kWh Powerwall + package $9,000 – $11,000. We are working to better clarify cost and availability."
The above is from around the traps here on 'Wonderland'.
Have you considered a Honda genset to tie you over? A Honda EU7000is will cost you US$5,000 - (http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu7000is). I thought you wanted to save $'s?
You being in SE Qld., I would have thought that you may have outages that peeve you off together with all that fluffy stuff that floats above PV solar panels up your way.
IAEA
Chippa2014
Member
Hi IAEA
I've been one step ahead of most with respect to Tesla units here in SE QLD due to our contacts in the US. We've known about and have been considering these 10KwH units since 2014..... We've also unofficially known that there are at least 3 installers who have been considered and approved by Tesla here in QLD, just waiting on the "formal" announcement which will be out mid Q3.
With respect to the install, confirmed yesterday that our original PV installers (who have an agreement in place already with Tesla for their vehicle refuelling stations) are good to go next year and we will work with them on install options and pricing it up etc etc.
Need to work the fine print but looks like mid 2016 which will work in fine with our existing plans.
Be nice to replace the tower of batteries and rack with wall mounted units.
As for a geni.. why would I waste money on a generator? I don't understand why you would suggest it.
Outages aren't that big an issue here and that fluffy stuff is a little annoying... it lowered our feed in to an average of 18kWh per day last quarter.
Bit of a bugger all that rain and cloud really as our last Electricity bill our feed in went from +$1000 to +$850. 
Cheers
Chippa
Jim Kunstler's latest blog post "Muskular Magic" takes a line on Elon Musk's Tesla Motors and PowerWall battery that may go down like a lead balloon with most of those posting here.
For example:
"The main delusion: that we can “solve” the problems of techno-industrial society with more and better technology."
http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/muskular-magic/
Morbo
Member
80% of technology is invented to deal with problems caused by technology, so its 4 in 5 chance it does work.
Then we need more technology to get rid of the batteries every few years.
Its still a better option than waiting for "them" to fix our problems.
One big plus of hybrids is, they get you going during blackouts.
That post relates to the US, refer
http://www.amazon.com/Suburban-Nation-Sprawl-Decline-American/dp/0865477507
and why would PV installation cost $30 000? This system would be way too big for a 10kWh battery. Plus after the mentioned 25 years there will still be those panes running that came online say 20 years from now. Its not lights out by then until mankind acts more stupid than usual
dlvb19
Member
Catopsilia,
Lead balloon indeed - the entire article is self indulgent soap boxing. It's full of incorrect assumption, bad numbers and massive hyperbole - with a few wild economic statements for good measure. I'm surprised you read this stuff. Good to get a spectrum of opinion I suppose
