newbie - where to start looking for solar quotes ? « Alternative Technology Assn Forums

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newbie - where to start looking for solar quotes ?

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Started 6 years ago by Frankly
Latest reply from Frankly

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Frankly
Member

Hi - just joined so total newbie here - have spoken with City of Sydney Council who are currently offering grants for various local projects - I thought of solar PV to power the 24x7 basement garage lighting for our strata residential complex.

Initial enquiry found it doesn't qualify for 'innovative' but as it has not been done so much for strata complexes we might qualify as a 'demonstration' project and get some funding.

Although I follow alternative technology with general interest I'm totally not up on the latest providers and best practice currently installing solutions in the ?falling-rebate kill-anything-that's-not-coal environment.

Our baseline 24x7 fluoro garage lighting load is probably around 2.7-3.0 kW.

(Before anyone says 'install LEDs' - we just missed some requirement to get subsidies for that - so assume we'll keep the existing 4' fluoros for the time being)

I've read that storage batteries are a coming thing but suspect not yet - and that feed-in tariffs were being slashed - heard maybe not worthwhile so just try and supply the daytime load - which is what I'm thinking here.

So I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the general direction of who to ask about possible solutions. All suggestions appreciated if you would thanks.

Posted Sunday 1 Feb 2015 @ 11:01:30 am from IP #
sun2steam
Member

Hi Frankly,

Some of your date do not match up at all.

E.g. A lighting load of 2.7-3.0 kW with "the existing 4' fluoros". How can that be?

Or: "(Before anyone says 'install LEDs' - we just missed some requirement to get subsidies for that - so assume we'll keep the existing 4' fluoros for the time being)" - LEDs often make economical sense even if there are no subsidies.

Or: why do you need grants for solar PV? In most cases PV will be an investment with a good return, as long as most PV energy is consumed within the building and not fed into the grid.?

Posted Sunday 1 Feb 2015 @ 11:20:36 am from IP #
Frankly
Member

thanks for your reply sun2steam -

How come 3kw from 4' fluoros - we have 55 of these at 40W each makes 2200W - plus we have CFL lights elsewhere. I calculated they may cost us about $5000 per year (if 26c/kWh) - 18W LEDS compared to 40W fluoros may save say $2700 per year.

LEDs economical sense without subsidies ? - 4' LEDs last I looked were about $60-100 each supply only - and our garage, installing over parked cars and/or getting access to individual cages, doubled or tripled that for replacement installation costs. So if it cost us $5400 we might have a 2 year payback. Otherwise not.

why do I need grants for solar PV ? - I don't - if I don't do it - otherwise I need approval from an executive committee who typically want a 2 year payback before agreeing - if you can show me an under 2 year payback - with real figures - not the fake ones some dodgy providers use - I'll jump at it.

Now - if anyone can actually suggest sources/contacts - I would appreciate - thanks if you can.

Posted Sunday 1 Feb 2015 @ 10:23:55 pm from IP #
David
Member

Frankly said:
we have 55 of these at 40W each makes 2200W - plus we have CFL lights elsewhere. I calculated they may cost us about $5000 per year (if 26c/kWh)

Do the fluro's run during the day?
Is there an expectation of using storage for powering them at night?

Posted Monday 2 Feb 2015 @ 12:12:53 am from IP #
Frankly
Member

Hi David - thanks for your reply

yes the garage and stairwell lights run 24x365 (all the time) - I estimated daytime load to be around 2700W, and nighttime load (adding some garden and entrance lights) to be around 3300W

storage is a nice imagination - I understand it's an evolving technology with some new large US factory planning on building lots - but I'm not up on costs so that's my next question - who to ask about this ?

Thanks.

Posted Monday 2 Feb 2015 @ 7:16:37 am from IP #
David
Member

Frankly said:
yes the garage and stairwell lights run 24x365 (all the time) - I estimated daytime load to be around 2700W, and nighttime load (adding some garden and entrance lights) to be around 3300W

Do they all NEED to run all the time or could a large chunk of them be altered for movement sensors and have absolute minimal lighting when no one is around?

Frankly said: storage is a nice imagination - I understand it's an evolving technology.

I design and install grid, grid-hybrid and off-grid solutions/systems. I also have my own hybrid & off-grid house systems, however it's not cheap and unlikely to be ever "cheap" for good systems. The AU dollar has dropped approx 20%, lots of equipment has gone up by about the same amount. Batteries will eventually come down in price and that will make it more cost effective. However electricity prices will still keep going up in the meantime. Sometimes it's better to just bite the bullet and simply commit to the solution.

For your project I suggest that any system that might be installed have the largest array possible to suit the application within the constraints of CEC requirements. Solar has a highly variable output, this must be allowed for in the design of the system. So that a flatter longer period of power output for a Grid connected system is of more use to you than one that starts off low, climbs to a peak and then tapers off over the rest of the afternoon.

ROI is very hard to factor down to specific period of time, a well designed system will pay for itself and then over a longer period of time pay for itself many times over in savings, it will most certainly not be the cheapest system.

After all power pricing is never going to stay static it's only going up, every time it does so the ROI time gets shorter.

Posted Monday 2 Feb 2015 @ 11:07:37 am from IP #
sun2steam
Member

Frankly, I am flabbergasted about the request of a two year pay back time.
I wonder how someone or some organisation can get anything done with such a requirement.
If you convert a 2 year payback time into an interest rate it is 50%. Not bad, if you get at best 3.5% from the banks!

I suggest to regard investing in LED lighting or other energy saving measures as an investment. If you have a return (including getting your money back) which is clearly better than any secure financial investment, it is worth doing. But you need to say goodbye to a 2 year payback time. You can do your own calculations here: http://www.sun2steam.com.au/index.php/energy-cost-savings-calculator/

If you find any secure investment of 8% or better let me know. I am interested to invest. (By the way that corresponds to a pay back time of 10 to 11 years.)

Posted Monday 2 Feb 2015 @ 12:21:32 pm from IP #
sun2steam
Member

I just found a case study for fluoro replacement by LEDs: http://www.ata.org.au/wp-content/uploads/peter-seligman-case-study.pdf

If I plug the numbers of the study in my calculator and assuming 8 years life time I get a comparison rate (the rate of an investment with the same return) of 11.9%. There is no secure investment providing such a return.

But it gets even better. Assume your body corporate can get a home loan at 7% to finance the investment (they can probably do much better). Plug in the date of the case study in my calculator and you can see that the comparison rate is about 250%. You pay hardly anything and the pay back time is 1.7 years.

If you can get a loan for 6.5% (scroll the spreadsheet to the right to enter interest rate) you will actually have a pay back time of 0 (ZERO) years because the investment is cash flow positive from day one. Good enough?

Posted Monday 2 Feb 2015 @ 1:15:11 pm from IP #
Eco
Member

No expert but a few thoughts.

There are more efficient Flouro tubes available these days - T5 - which might save 20% for a modest cost even if only used for replacement bulbs.

LEDs are considerably more efficient. I have seen adverts for LED tubes with movement sensors - no idea of price. Could be good for your situation - could have 25% (?) on continuously and the rest on movement sensors. Would have to evaluate whether more economic to wire in separate sensors - perhaps the continuously on lights could be LEDs and the others remain as fluoros?

Posted Tuesday 3 Feb 2015 @ 1:10:00 am from IP #
Lance
Key Master

There's no point installing a big solar system to run these fluoros when they are the older, inefficient T8 or T10 units. As Eco said, switch to T5 tubes (you don't need to replace the fittings, you can get adapters with inbuilt electronic ballasts for this task) or go with LEDs, you can halve the energy use just by switching to a good quality LED tube.

The movement sensor is a great idea, should be easy enough to cut the total energy use of these lights by 60% or more...

Posted Tuesday 3 Feb 2015 @ 2:01:48 am from IP #
David
Member

Lance said: or go with LEDs, you can halve the energy use just by switching to a good quality LED tube.

The movement sensor is a great idea, should be easy enough to cut the total energy use of these lights by 60% or more...

LED tubes can also be retro fitted to the existing fluro units once their modified then with the movement sensors you would find that the size of a solar system would be reduced still further. Although my suggestion about sizing still applies, I suspect that then demand would be sufficiently reduced that the end result would/could be viable for a hybrid solution as the demand for energy (overnight kWh's) would a fraction of what you need at the moment so cost wouldn't be OTT. One advantage would be lighting would work even in blackouts, which is a nice bonus.

In the last few years at home we have had quite a number of blackouts (+10), well the area has, we haven't. The only way we know is "cable TV" dies when a blackout occurs. an average blackout in our area is around 2 hours but there have been nearly 5 hour outages.

Posted Tuesday 3 Feb 2015 @ 4:13:00 am from IP #
Benny
Member

I wouldn't recommend particular providers but the broker type service solarquotes.com.au seems to be very useful. Sorry if this is recommending a commercial service - delete if you feel necessary.

Posted Wednesday 4 Feb 2015 @ 5:10:58 am from IP #
David
Member

Benny said:
broker type service solarquotes.com.au seems to be very useful.

Pay per potential lead product/website, expensive when consider that the offering to the business is only a possible lead

It only provides an extremely limited set of businesses as a result. I tried it but the cost per possible lead is expensive considering you are only getting a lead, gave it the boot almost as quickly as I tried it, I don't like having to figure out where I must cut corners to at least make a margin to survive, while doing decent systems.

Posted Wednesday 4 Feb 2015 @ 8:05:04 am from IP #
Frankly
Member

thanks folks for all the suggestions about LED - I checked the case study numbers and found the same 8 year payback so don't know where a return of 11.9% comes from if it takes 8 years before I get my original money back to point zero (payback is usually BEFORE I start to earn/save/make money) ?

LED sounds nice but - we have already had a consultant look at it - the high cost means I can't get an installation approved by our committee - and the slightly less light output from 18W LED compared to 36W fluoro with our already marginal code garage lighting - would likely risk our insurance coverage - and we don't want to be footing angry old fogies insurance claims for injuries due to sub-standard lighting !

Now - to return to my question - solar quotes - I see one suggestion - solarquotes - refuted by the following comment

City of Sydney council could only suggest ATA as a helpful source - if I get no suggestions here - shall I just google 'solar installers' and try my luck ?

Posted Wednesday 4 Feb 2015 @ 10:17:28 am from IP #
David
Member

Frankly said:
slightly less light output from 18W LED compared to 36W fluoro

, somethings wrong there the last lot of conversions I/we did were far brighter than the original fluros and definitely had a higher overall light output compared to traditional T8 fluros.

In Sydney apparently this company is good >>> http://www.ahegroup.com.au/ <<< I'm in Vic. they have had good feedback in the past.

Posted Wednesday 4 Feb 2015 @ 10:34:35 am from IP #
Lance
Key Master

Yes, unless they are particularly inefficient LED tubes, the final output will be better than the original T8 tubes. Remember, while the spec of the fluoros might give a higher lumen figure, half that light goes in the wrong direction and has to be reflected back by the fitting. Most fittings are usually pretty dirty and so a lot of that light is wasted.

Every time I have replaced a T8 fluoro with a LED tube with a lower wattage, the output has been a higher level of illumination.

Posted Wednesday 4 Feb 2015 @ 11:43:55 am from IP #
sun2steam
Member

Frankly, you are correct doubting the percentage. The calculation was for 25 years lifetime as stated in the worksheet.

However if you scroll the worksheet, you can see that for a life time of 10 years, which is to be expected for LEDs, the comparison rate(= IRR) is 4.28% which is still better than anything you can get from the bank. And probably you would have had to change the fluoros once or twice which gives you additional savings.

Posted Wednesday 4 Feb 2015 @ 3:23:00 pm from IP #
Frankly
Member

thank you - finally - a solar recommendation !

AHE group seems to be in NSW as well - thanks for that.

And one of their testimonials mentioned Whirlpool - which may be another place I can ask (seeing most folk here can't seem to get beyond recommending LEDs - when I'm asking about solar panels)

thanks folks !

Posted Wednesday 4 Feb 2015 @ 9:36:13 pm from IP #
Annette
Member

Hi Frankly

Try product review.com.au

Also, some of the renovators on the renovate forums website have purchased panels in Sydney recently. There was a recent thread in the solar power section of the rennovate forum which mentioned names and brands.

Regards
Annette

Posted Thursday 5 Feb 2015 @ 12:25:48 am from IP #
Frankly
Member

thanks Annette - had a quick browse of productreview website (I've posted reviews there before) - but quickly decided most reviews were fake - all 5 stars all occurring around the same dates - like 2013 - and none since - or 'worst ever' - also fake from rivals - stuff like that.

I've opened up some whirlpool pages - think I tend to get more realistic discussion there - will see how I go.

appreciate your thoughts.

Posted Thursday 5 Feb 2015 @ 1:06:37 am from IP #
David
Member

Whirlpool I post on regularly as well. Its also where AHE group has had good feedback on. yes they are NSW that's why I suggested them. No point in suggesting someone that is not where the job is. However you are still better off doing energy saving first it is best first step.

You're better off updating the lighting first, then do solar afterwards the results will be far superior both in amount of light and the amount of cost over time saved. After all if the actual power used is lower then that equates to money saved in the pocket and that improves every time there is price rise in kWh rates.

Posted Thursday 5 Feb 2015 @ 4:12:59 am from IP #
Frankly
Member

aargh - thank you but NO !

I've been researching LED lighting intensively for years - I know the paybacks and costs - I am NOT asking how to save energy - I do that already !

My QUESTION related to solar power - after a one-off offer of a council subsidy for grant money.

But hey - now you mention it maybe I can turn it around to look at LED replacement - why the hell not.

I'll see - thanks - now please get off my back about LED lights - OK ?

Posted Thursday 5 Feb 2015 @ 8:45:39 am from IP #
sun2steam
Member

Frankly, I would say this is not the right tone for this forum.
Or is this what you understand as 'Frankly'?

Posted Thursday 5 Feb 2015 @ 9:44:57 am from IP #
David
Member

Frankly said:
aargh - thank you but NO !

I've been researching LED lighting intensively for years - I know the paybacks and costs - I am NOT asking how to save energy - I do that already !

It's your choice.

The fact is though, that lower energy demand means smaller PV system for the job, which means a lower cost for it. It's always better to reduce first and they have improved immensely in the last couple of years, cost has also gone down in the last 12 months as well.

Finally with all due respect, please remember this is a suggestion about the best way to produce a long term solution, with ongoing improved savings everyday.

#just saying.

Posted Thursday 5 Feb 2015 @ 10:12:25 am from IP #
Frankly
Member

sorry - bowing head - apologise for disrespect after repeated attempts to ask same question and not getting an answer to the question I asked - please continue talking about LEDs - just without me - thanks anyway.

Posted Thursday 5 Feb 2015 @ 10:53:26 am from IP #

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