Hi Richard,
Have you started with your Paneco SIPs house yet? Would be interested in what you experienced so far.
Structural Insulated Panels
(343 posts) (108 voices)-
NovelTech
MemberHi,with a bit more searching I found this website which provides quite an extensive pricelist for SIPs and connecting elements in the USA. The quoted prices work out to around Aus$43-60 per m2.
http://www.greenwall.us/services.php
Does this agree with experience of local prices from the likes of Paneco? I am also wondering what this translates to in terms of an installed cost versus the $110-170/m2 for conventional building methods.
Posted Wednesday 1 Jun 2011 @ 7:13:24 am from IP # -
fireflies
MemberHi Just a copy and pste of my new thread. Probably relevant to this thread too.
Perth company producing a double fibre cement and polyurethane fill sandwhich - cyclone, fire and thermally rated. Apparently cheaper than double brick - (copmany promo info) Appears to me to be about same price as double brick from my research.COPIED...
Has anyone an opinion or experience with R9 wall panels. It is a prefabricated material developed by FBM Corp here in Perth with a double fibre cement sandwich of polyurethane. It apparently has high sound and temp insulation - equivalent of cool room panels but has been designed for fast residential installation. Their web site is fbmcorp.com.au.
We have tried a few local builders to see if they are familiar with the panel construction for our planned build later this year but no one seems aware of it, or interested in diverging from standard brick construction.
Cheers FirefliesPosted Thursday 9 Jun 2011 @ 8:47:30 am from IP # -
NovelTech
MemberI don't have personal experience, but the construction method of a polyurethane foam core with fibre cement sheeting outer is used by Force 10 which seems to be well established in Queensland, and have been building according to this method for quite a while.
Posted Wednesday 15 Jun 2011 @ 5:11:50 am from IP # -
gazmo88
MemberThese folks were exhibiting at the recent Sydney HIA home show:
http://www.ecoenergyhomes.com.au/index.cfm
They appear to be a division of these people:
http://www.austecpanels.com.au/
Who have been doing cool rooms and things for some time.
The eco energy homes guy had been doing real things and there are examples on their website.
The chap I spoke to seemed pretty knowledgeable, and made a lot of sense.
They appear to be able to supply everything from a flat pack house (with optional assembly) to individual panels, although which bits come from which of the above companies was unclear.
One panel system came complete with a synthetic render on the outside, but there seemed to be any number of potential panel types.
I may and see them for a chat and if I learn anything I will report back.
I have no affiliation with these people or anyone else in the building industry for that matter.
Posted Sunday 19 Jun 2011 @ 3:38:22 am from IP # -
fireflies
MemberThanks Noveltech and gazmo88. I have had a good look over the Force10 and austecpanels websites and there are testimonials from people living in the adjoing suburb to where we plan to build so will follow up and contact them regarding their expereince and perhaps check out there house if they are willing. This is looking more promising at this stage than the local FBM corp if for no other reason than they are established and have a track record to measure them by. We at least have options to consider in the insulated wall panel field.
Posted Monday 20 Jun 2011 @ 2:55:23 pm from IP # -
fireflies
MemberHi Benny,
I would be interested in hearing of anyone locally (Perth) who has used SIPS in construction.Just an update regarding FBM Corp and their product. I contacted them again asking if there are any local project builders interested in their product and apparently Summit Homes Group (Brett Garret) has been in discussion with them regarding incorporating their R9 cement fibre/polyurethane foam sandwich product into their houses - another lead to follow.
Posted Wednesday 22 Jun 2011 @ 1:45:03 pm from IP # -
Benny
MemberHi Fireflies, I just heard from the guy (Kerry Moir) who manufactures the panels being used here - he represents RControl - http://www.au.rcontrol.com/about.asp Looks like they have a base in Welshpool. They are building town houses in Innaloo and duplexes in Nollamara and he offered to show me around - so if you are interested in seeing them too, email me at abenn (at) tpg.com.au. The builders are JWH.
Posted Thursday 30 Jun 2011 @ 5:26:02 am from IP # -
Jeffbloggs
MemberBenny/Fireflies
I note they seem to be using the American R-value methodology and not the Australian one. Also being a timber product they might have VOC and termite/mold issues.The MgO board versions don't. We went to see the SIP Industries version of the SIP panel (also timber), and their price was around $80sqm, the MgO versions were around $65sqm and do not require exterior or interior cladding.
For example: gyprock interior is another $20sqm each side, and the exterior on the timber SIPs need colourbond or cement sheeting for render/texturecoat/paint with moisture barrier. The MgO can be finished directly with paint or texturecoat and requires no individual moisture or termite protection. VOC's should also be non existent from the MgO board and they can be used for flooring and can be tiled on directly in wet areas etc. They are also fire proof and water/mold proof.
We have decided to go with the MgO board SIPS until we can find another comparable product. Overall it is much more effective and cheaper to boot.
Posted Thursday 30 Jun 2011 @ 6:56:58 am from IP # -
Jeffbloggs
MemberGaz
About $65sqm for 90mm panels at http://www.paneco.com.au/Posted Thursday 30 Jun 2011 @ 9:34:46 am from IP # -
Jeffbloggs
MemberGaz
Paneco is in Queensland
Thicker Styrofoam only adds a few dollars per sqm, typically about $3-5 per sqm per 25mm.Regards
JBPosted Thursday 30 Jun 2011 @ 11:00:56 am from IP # -
Benny
MemberYes JB - those MgO boards sound impressive. The guy I spoke to did say the RControl ones were based on US technology - hence the timber cladding and US R values I suppose. They do show some metric R values on their site too, which sound "normal" - I think they get up to R 8 for 350mm thickness. I have no idea of price etc - I just heard of some local house being built and will take the opportunity to visit them if I can - assess other aspects of design while I'm there.
Posted Friday 1 Jul 2011 @ 1:57:24 pm from IP # -
Jeffbloggs
MemberBenny
Where abouts is the house in the "neighborhood" at? I wouldn't mind having a look as well. Maybe I can tag along and catch up with Fireflies as well? Let me know how you go.
Regards
JBPosted Friday 1 Jul 2011 @ 2:02:21 pm from IP # -
Jeffbloggs
MemberThx Benny
Posted Saturday 2 Jul 2011 @ 8:33:37 am from IP # -
gazmo88
MemberFolks,
I have been discussing SIPs and my possible use of same with my old mate "Danny the Hippie".
He isn't too impressed with the concept of SIPs which use a polystyrene core, fearing the word styrene.
He is also not terribly impressed with the idea isocyanate core which despite its superior fire resistance contains the chemical cyanide - albeit also in combination with other "stuff" "don't fancy living in a house made from superglue mysself" - funny as he uses superglue every day but I digress.
Don' think I have mentioned mineral wool core to him but those panels do not appear to have much structural strength contribution from the core - not surprisingly.
I have spent time building boats so if styrene is gunna get me its too late. Actually there is a long list of nasty chemicals I have been exposed to one of which is doubless gnawing away at something while I type. However ....
Being a responsible sort of person (well in some regards) I do not wish to endanger any of those who might follow in my footsteps.
What then is the group opinion re possible chemical contagion consequent to the use of these chemicals in construction ?
Cheers.
Oh and I hope Benny & Jeff will be reporting back after their "field trip"
Posted Sunday 3 Jul 2011 @ 12:47:52 am from IP # -
wontanuhome
MemberHi all ... just found this site whilst searching for products to build a new home. WE've been interested in SIPS panels too, but they're being a bit cagey about estimates. The first thing they asked was "whats your budget" ... we've got plans drawn up and want them to give us an estimate price so we work out our budget. Trying to get alternative products and prices in the meantime.
For all those looking for a SIPS built house and info on it, there's a lady called Sam, built a single storey SIPS house in Palmyra. We went there a few times during the building process and she was very helpful. She also worked in with Living Smart and built it in an energy saving way.
She blogged about the process, so if you want to follow it, here's the link. http://www.fattydemonsey.com/blog/ It was Rob at SIPS in Bibra Lake who took us there. I'm sure Sam will give you info about the product.Posted Sunday 3 Jul 2011 @ 3:10:35 am from IP # -
prettygully
MemberHi Gazmo,
Would you care to elaborate on your (or your mate's) concern, please?
What are you afraid of & when?
e.g. out-gassing on a day-today basis, or what happens when there is a fire?Posted Sunday 3 Jul 2011 @ 5:33:37 am from IP # -
fireflies
MemberThe other alternative to polystyrene is the polyurethane core. It appears to have good fire retardant properties - however I'm not sure about óutgassing'or what would be released under prolonged fire exposure. Having lived through the Kelmscott fires this year (our house was only chargrilled) and planning a new building in the hills north of here, fire retardation is a priority. Any information regarding comparisons on polystyrene versus polyurethane under prolonged heat would be useful. Also what would happen to these products after repeated exposure to the back of a wood fire heater on the internal wall too - sometimes our current wood heater gets the brickwork above 80 degrees The FBM Corp product R9 that use a triple fibre cement double polyurethane sandwich was what first got us interested in this building method. I'd avoid the wood panelling for the simple reason that it needs cladding externally and therefore extra work/cost.
Posted Tuesday 5 Jul 2011 @ 5:53:38 am from IP # -
prettygully
Memberhi fireflies,
the people with MgO skins claim good fire resistance:
1) not SIPs, but bricks with MgO outer & foam (PIR) core
http://www.greenenergybricks.com/heattransfer.html
2) paneco http://www.paneco.com.au/index.php/home/testing-2Posted Tuesday 5 Jul 2011 @ 6:21:38 am from IP # -
gazmo88
Memberprettygully said:
'the people with MgO skins claim good fire resistance"
it would appear that paneco make 2 different panels, one with polystyrene and one with iscocyanate (I think)the greenenergy people use isocyanate.
In a serious fire the polystyrene will melt (one of the SUPs people had a fire brigade report about "the tip top bakery fire" where the roof melted and sagged to the floor). The implication was that the isocyanate panels would just char a little.
Of course at the point that your fire has melted the roof, do you really care ? Unless that tiny bit of smoke it outputs is some nasty cyanide thingie.
None of the suppliers mention outgassing either at room temp or inferno temp.
Be nice to know.
I think the greenenergy bricks would be fun. Lego for big boys, but somebody mentioned $55 a block which is a bit sad.
If the paneco people ever call me back I will ask and report back.
I am guessing polyurethane has a relatively low melting point. The regular stuff burns but the foam may have a retardant added.
Questions questions
Posted Tuesday 5 Jul 2011 @ 7:06:06 am from IP # -
fireflies
MemberWikipedia tells us that both polystyrene and polyurethane have a melting point of 240-280deg. Polystyrene has a softening point of 90deg. No mention of lower heat effect on polyurethane. In the comparison of one foam with another it may end up being the situation where one could say, both are good for construction of wall panels with one not superior to the other - I would be interested in comparing sound and thermal insulation of both but there seems to be so many types and densities of polyurethane foam that a comparison can only be made between 2 specific panels not styrenes and urethanes generally. It seems both foams are inflammable when exposed to open flame, release cyanide when burnt, are good insulators, have long history of use and are a good option for wall panels - perhaps it comes down to supply and cost and the choice of supporting cladding - eg MgO, fibre cement, wood, aluminium or steel - and personal preference with those.
Posted Tuesday 5 Jul 2011 @ 7:28:27 am from IP # -
gazmo88
Memberfireflies said:
" It seems both foams are inflammable when exposed to open flame "
Being a sceptic I take a little butane torch when looking at these things. Most I have tried to date appear to be self extinguishing wen the torch is removed. I read somewhere that they add stuff to them for this purpose. I probably would not have been so keen to test had I realise its cyanide thats being emitted !" perhaps it comes down to supply and cost and the choice of supporting cladding "
is the conclusion I am also trending towards.Posted Tuesday 5 Jul 2011 @ 8:48:51 am from IP # -
gazmo88
MemberOK Found the fire articles I was looking for.
here:
http://ecohousing.com.au/pages/pdf/Fire%20Australia%20May%202003%20-%20Sandwich%20Panels.pdfhere:
http://ecohousing.com.au/pages/pdf/Tiptop%20bakery%20fire.pdfand here:
http://ecohousing.com.au/pages/pdf/tas_polystyrene-cladding-systems-1.pdfNote that these are from the website of a SIPs supplier whose panels are made from polyurethane and hence its in their interests to cast aspersions on other cores.
When I spoke to the Paneco people they said their product fire performance was 60/60/60
nothing yet on any potential outgassing while just sitting there but I will keep looking
Still more investigation needed methinks
Posted Thursday 7 Jul 2011 @ 2:36:10 am from IP # -
amazing
MemberHey Richard,
sorry for super late reply.I see you are looking at QLD company Panico ........... Hmmmmmm I think their focus has changed from a "system" to panels only, I believe they have also changed the specs and are importing completed panels from China rather than manufacturing locally with Australian products (unsure how that affects quality).
My project is still all good I am in the process of getting some plans drawn up to build a Granny flat using the system, should start project end of July.
I'll keep you informed.
cheersPosted Sunday 10 Jul 2011 @ 12:24:53 am from IP #