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Structural Insulated Panels

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Started 14 years ago by SueDunbar
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efficient design
Member

Thanks walkerj99,
I understand that your construction path is now re-determined & I wish you God speed....my initial post was directed at your request for solutions for systems that offered BAL29 compliance.

To clarify to the Forum:- as explained earlier there is no difference between our MgO SIP system & other 'existing panels'

ALL alternative building technologies go through a stage of resistance in the market place....I know that well from other 'green' systems I've been involved with ver the past 2 decades. If this was utopia, then such new technologies should be embraced with gusto!

Concise detailing, easily understood Design/Install Manuals & 3D representations are some of the tools that eliminate the 'fear factor' for both designers & installers. If you can follow a Lego block construction pamphlet then you'll find SIP panel install a breeze.

Posted Friday 8 Nov 2013 @ 11:18:33 pm from IP #
gazmo88
Member

For those of you who doubt that an MgO / EPS SIP is not fireproof or structural then this video is for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MqA4WSYGldU

please note:
a) don;t try this at home kids !
b) I am not a SIP manufacturer nor am I affiliated with one (or any building related company) in any way.
c) Mag Roc no longer use timber (as shown in this video) in their joins.
d) This is NOT science. This is a cheesy piece of PR. There are facilities in Australia where proper flammability testing is done up to BAL-FZ where inside and outside temperatures are measured. No guessing how hot it is inside that structure, but it may not be as hot as it looks. We just don;t know.
e) Although this "tasteful" structure is covered in lovely plastic pretend weatherboard you can see that it contributes nothing to its flame resisting properties.

Having just had a bunch of engineering calcs done for MgO / EPS SIPs I can confirm that the structural performance in terms of spans / lintels etc is quite similar to OSB / EPS or OSB / PIR panels. Sufficient that both can be used the same way (although detail will differ).

No axe to grind either way, just saying

Cheers

Posted Saturday 9 Nov 2013 @ 12:53:29 am from IP #
chiplife
Member

can anyone tell me what happened to the EPS that was the core of the sips, since EPS has a melting point of 240c I'm assuming it all turns into liquid and runs out of the panels, or at the very least a big pool of molten plastic at the bottom of the panel.

Posted Monday 11 Nov 2013 @ 2:00:55 am from IP #
efficient design
Member

Chiplife....are you asking this question in relation to that specific youtube example that gazmo88 presented or are you indirectly challenging MgO/EPS/MgO SIPs proven compliance with the BCA in relation to Fire (structure) & FRL ratings?

gazmo88 has clearly stated in his post above (d) that proper tests must be done in the appropriate facilities.

Posted Monday 11 Nov 2013 @ 3:00:31 am from IP #
gazmo88
Member

Chiplife - I have no idea. I wasn't there and as I said its not science. If the EPS had gone however my guess is that the SIP side of the structure would have fallen apart.

MgO board in general is pretty impervious to heat however, and if an MgO SIP was installed such that there were no gaps which exposed the EPS there is no reason to think that the internal heat would rise sufficiently to melt the EPS. But that opinion isn;t science.

There is another piece of "non-science" on the MgO corp website that will give you an idea of how MgO board performs here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RVpBvZy31U
But thats not science. A timer and a FLIR camera would improve its scientific worth a lot.
Its still fairly impressive.

But of you look at the MgO website here: http://mgoboard.com.au you will note that MgO corps product is JAS-ANZ approved and that it can happily construct a 120/120/120 wall.

Incidentally there is a nice photo on page 81 of Sanctuary 25 (current issue) of the CSIRO doing fire testing.

Cheers

Posted Monday 11 Nov 2013 @ 8:14:12 am from IP #
dubbo teacher
Member

ED - I'd like to know more about SIPs but it doesn't seem to add up. Even your own entries seem contradictory...
On one hand
"From experience, all SIP installs that I've worked on with factory re-worked panels, there has always been some panels reworked onsite.....SIPS require millimeter perfection...floors/slabs aren't that accurate.....and then there is the issue of panel 'creep' which can occur when joints between panels aren't tight."

Then
"If you can follow a Lego block construction pamphlet then you'll find SIP panel install a breeze."
I'm not sure where we stand particularly in relation to whether or not we need to use timber/metal or some other material as reinforcement. Can you give me a straight answer?
Thank you
DT

Posted Monday 11 Nov 2013 @ 8:34:40 am from IP #
gazmo88
Member

DT,

I can explain your question but I'll leave it to ED as they are his statements.

If you (or anyone else) wants to learn a bit more about SIPs and how to construct structures with them then I suggest the following as starting points :

The SIPs industry website:
http://www.sips.org

The SIP industry builders guide:
"Builders Guide to Structural Insulated Panels (SIPs), Joseph L Stiburek , ISBN 978-0-9755127-8-4

and a Taunton Press publication:
Structural Insulated Panels (SIPS), Michael Morley , ISBN 1-56158-351-0

Unfortunately these references are US focused and concentrate mainly on OSB/EPS panels but there is sufficient information in there to gain a good understanding of what is involved.

Hope this helps

Posted Monday 11 Nov 2013 @ 9:50:35 am from IP #
efficient design
Member

Hi dubbo teacher…. I’ll gladly answer your questions;

Firstly, I will generalize about what support information that the builder/client SHOULD receive from the SIP supplier.

On submitting the plans for manufacture, the supplier may overlay a 2D representation of their panels on your plans... This is to get an indication of the total number of panels required & the height of the panels is calculated from crossections/elevations. A schedule for manufacture is then sent to the factory for laminating & possibly reworking. Some suppliers will create a 3D model of the panels used to build the building. This gives a MORE accurate representation of panel dimensions, particularly where raking walls are cut & such a model can also reveal design issues that are not that clear from the 2D representations. NOTE: the paramount design issue is to design from the outset with panel increments in mind…this reduces waste & saves $ for the client….who pays for that waste.

I hope you can now appreciate that the supplier, with very little effort, has the ability to provide you with a Plan Layout showing panels overlaid on your plan in 2D & possibly provide 3D representations viewed from various location…..this is what I call a ‘lego plan’…..how simple can that then be for the installer….just follow the panel #’s & the 'pretty pictures'…& hopefully all in colour.

This all works very well inside the computer where the model deals with mm accuracy, but when the panels arrive onsite, many variables come to play:-

Firstly, variations in the slab or subfloor framing are common. Even 5 or 10mm may have an influence…& then there’s the occasional 100mm mistake at set-out. These issues are a common situation with all forms of building….it’s not unusual for prenailed stick frames to be modified onsite.

Secondly, there’s panel creep. Eg: if the panels have been supplied based on horizontal increments of say 1100mm & let’s say the installers don’t ensure all joints are tight, then on a long wall length, each error is added & the last panel will overhang the subfloor/slab. In addition, occasional panels may be laminated where 1 skin of a panel is slightly askew…this will be reflected with panel creep.

Thirdly, design changes on site, modifications to allow for services, addition of fixings for cabinetry/joinery…etc: will all mean panels may need to be reworked onsite…. Despite good planning & design, on a complex build, these issues only become apparent when the structure is being assembled. This is a common scenario with many forms of construction.

Well ‘dubbo teacher’, I hope I've supplied a 'straight'answer to your queries & with simplicity…..SIP installation is a simple matter, there should be excellent documentation supplied, but even so, we’re not building in a perfect world….

Posted Monday 11 Nov 2013 @ 9:56:57 am from IP #
chiplife
Member

My Questions regarding the eps melting was not specific to that video, nor was i criticising the MGO board. EPS sips regardless of facing material, i think have a huge design flaw, EPS melts very easily, even if it is fire resistant EPS it still melts but wont ignite as easy. It is my understanding that EPS has been removed from the New Zealand version of the BCA and they will be doing the same here. People have been getting EPS products allowed through a loop hole for years now. If you have a normal timber frame that is foam boarded externally then rendered it has been achieving a fire rating because the EPS is protected from flame, however it is not protected from heat so it melts and runs out of the walls.

Posted Thursday 14 Nov 2013 @ 9:02:27 pm from IP #
efficient design
Member

chiplife,
Can you please provide a link where polystyrene has been banned from the NZ Building Code.
Polystyrene is still used extensively, companies in NZ such as Bondor. Insulclad & Magroc (SIPS) still supply to the NZ market & there is no indication they are changing.
Although there is heavy lobbing in both NZ & Australia by the PU & PIR people such as Kingspan, there is no indication the building codes in both countries will remove eps from the market place.
Now, back to MgO SIPS.....I have seen a video of MgO SIPs being tested in an authorised agency to achieve an FRL30/30/30.....the important issue is that once the test was done, the panel was cut in half & there was no sign of breakdown to the eps.
I have also witnessed a butane burner held up to a MgO panel for approx 10min.....the MgO glowed a cheery red for most of that time.....we cut into the panel as the eps was still intact, but the eps directly behind the hot spot had showed some visible breakdown, but had not melted as you stated above.....not pure science, but a demonstration of the thermal capabilities of MgO
One must remember, that when a house is on fire, it is the fumes from the furnishing etc that kills people first...& not from the eps....structures must provide adequate structural capabilities to allow the fireies to do there job...typically in less than 30min from fire ignition....and MgO/eps/MgO SIPs have proven that case

Posted Friday 15 Nov 2013 @ 2:50:44 am from IP #
Dean B
Member

Hello, I'm Dean Buckeridge from MagRoc NZ Ltd. I've just come across this forum and it is refreshing to see some informed and rational discussion around SIPs.

I'm keen to contribute and share the knowledge that we have developed over the last couple of years, we've just had our first CodeMark issued for NZ with another in the pipeline. We are happy to share our experiences and work collaboratively with other SIP manufacturers also, our goal is to develop the SIPs market for the benefit of all types of SIP as we will all be better off with a strong SIPs presence in the industry rather than scrapping among ourselves for a 0.5% share.

On the issue of fire we've had a 30/30/30 FRR wall assessed for use in NZ with the use of timber jointing splines rather than the MgO splines because of the concerns around EPS potentially losing its structural integrity in a fire. Most of the observations from efficient design above are consistent with our own, but we can understand the fire engineers wanting to be conservative around this issue.

One of the more interesting observations a fire engineer that I spoke to was that in a framed structure the linings will open up to allow a lot of oxygen in and the fuel load will burn up pretty quickly. With the greater air tightness of SIP construction the rate of flow of oxygen to a fire could be significantly slower resulting in a longer burn time at a slower rate but with potentially higher temperatures internally as the heat cannot escape as easily.

Posted Tuesday 3 Dec 2013 @ 3:32:53 am from IP #
Dean B
Member

Dean B said:
Hello, I'm Dean Buckeridge from MagRoc NZ Ltd. I've just come across this forum and it is refreshing to see some informed and rational discussion around SIPs.

I'm keen to contribute and share the knowledge that we have developed over the last couple of years, we've just had our first CodeMark issued for NZ with another in the pipeline. We are happy to share our experiences and work collaboratively with other SIP manufacturers also, our goal is to develop the SIPs market for the benefit of all types of SIP as we will all be better off with a strong SIPs presence in the industry rather than scrapping among ourselves for a 0.5% share.

On the issue of fire we've had a 30/30/30 FRR wall assessed for use in NZ with the use of timber jointing splines rather than the MgO splines because of the concerns around EPS potentially losing its structural integrity in a fire. Most of the observations from efficient design above are consistent with our own, but we can understand the fire engineers wanting to be conservative around this issue.

One of the more interesting observations that came from a fire engineer that I spoke to was that in a framed structure the linings will open up to allow a lot of oxygen in and the fuel load will burn up pretty quickly. With the greater air tightness of SIP construction the rate of flow of oxygen to a fire could be significantly slower resulting in a longer burn time at a slower rate but with potentially higher temperatures internally as the heat cannot escape as easily.

Posted Tuesday 3 Dec 2013 @ 3:45:40 am from IP #
MrGreen33
Member

I'd love to see if anyone has done a rough spreadsheet on prices per square meter with thicknesses ? private message me if you have . It would be so helpful .

Posted Friday 13 Dec 2013 @ 2:08:27 am from IP #
grassyflat
Member

I have used SIP recently(previous 6 months) to build my home with in South Australia.The product was supplied by a Qld firm and was manufactured using MGO sheeting and polystyrene infill.
All the internal wall joints were flushed according to data sheet instructions but have all failed catastrophicly.The board "shrinks "away from the 2 coat of basecoat paper tape and topcoat leaving cracks up to 5 mm wide on every full board (1100 mm wide).Variations of systems have been tried and all have failed.
The company has shown scant interest in assisting me with this problem and Id like to ask if there is anyone else who has had this issue and have they been able to find a solution?

thank you in advance Peter

Posted Tuesday 21 Jan 2014 @ 10:15:15 am from IP #
efficient design
Member

Hi Peter,

It's a pity to hear of your problems, but I'm not surprised. I think I have a pretty good handle on who is the manufacturer & I'm aware of several other houses where cracking has been a major problem with SIPs supplied from this company.

Unfortunately, this puts into question other MgO SIP systems utilizing tried & tested construction methodology.

Firstly, did you or your builder undergo the pre-construction training that this company now requires?
What action has the builder taken & what about construction insurance?
The cracking....is this worse on walls subject to sun & what colour is the house?

The construction methodology used in this system is particularly prone to cracking....I'm not sure if there have been recent changes but the system is flawed due to:
1) There has never been a provision for control joints. This is a monolithic system & control joints are a must...like is specified with FC/Blueboard.
2) The nailing pattern requires nails (3.15mm) at 50mm intervals for bracing. The power driven nails are drive 20mm, or less, from the edge of the sheet. This can 'blow out' the MgO edges, but also, so many nails, close together can cause the sheet to crack along the nailing line.....eg: it's like the perforations in paper that allow for ease to tear off a portion. Although, such a nailing pattern is common with FC/Blueboard bracing, MgO IS NOT FC sheet.....being 'softer' & more prone to cracking when such connections are applied. Other MgO systems do not recommended such excessive nailing & would promote screw fixing, at greater intervals, instead.
3) The panel connection is with timber studs. Other MgO systems use MgO spline connections (like with like)& therefore the thermal properties of the materials remain the same. There is also the possibility of shrinkage/expansion with the timber studs due to moisture & also MgO can soak up more water if it gets wet resulting in potential joint movement.

I hope this info will help, but I also put this post up the encourage people to research....AND research well

Posted Thursday 23 Jan 2014 @ 2:30:54 am from IP #
grassyflat
Member

Thanks for your reply Effient Design
My house was constructed by a licsened registered builder under the supervision of another builder who went to Qld and did their course.
After I began constuction another nearby house built useing these panels began to crack badly on the joints and after communicating with said company we proceeded to follow their instructions to improve the process,these included painting the floor and walls with a 4.1 water bondcret mix to prevent floor and walls "sucking up " moisture and to improve plaster flushing systems adherance to the board.The top plates were covered with a waterproof membrane (plastic dampcourse) and the roof went on within 4 weeks of the floor and walls being installed.
We also used liquid Nails Platinum as an adhesive and put expansion joints externally above window and door heads,in short we followed everything they recommended and yet it still failed.
Wetested the walls and floor for moisture levels and have found the to be at an incredible average of some 40% even after being protected during the construction phase.been covered by a roof for 4 months and 2 heatwaves with daytime temperatures over 40 degrees celcius for 3 and 4 days.The timbers framing the MGO are at a constant 9 to 11 percent moisture as are the timber bearers and joists.
Its worth noting that a "wrung out"dishcloth also holds around 40 percent moisture.
As SIPS are an inside and outside wall its seems possible that heat on one side (outside) and cool on the other (inside) could be forcing the MGO to bow (think a steak in a hot pan) and causing joints to fail
Whatever the cause I suggest to anyone considering using MGO panels to be aware that these issues exist and to date have not been able to be rectified,I say again the said company have shown little interest in "solving" my problem leaving me to work it for myself

regards

Posted Friday 24 Jan 2014 @ 1:28:43 am from IP #
efficient design
Member

Hi Peter,

Wow, 40%....that raised an eyebrow....there is clearly something not right, but there is a history with cracking with this particular system.....their construction methodology is flawed.

Interesting thought on possible cause, but consider MgO SIP house in Canada where it's -30C outside & 24C inside....a far greater thermal range than your house has experienced.....unless your external walls are black?????

I will pm you to discuss further with you.

Posted Friday 24 Jan 2014 @ 5:57:42 am from IP #
Ecohome
Member

Can anyone recommend a draftsperson in Perth who is familiar with designing in SIPs?

Posted Wednesday 29 Jan 2014 @ 8:04:45 am from IP #
efficient design
Member

In reference to ‘grassyflats’ posts; the system that has failed him is Paneco.

For further discussion about this please review the new thread: “Paneco leaves new home owners devastated”. Can any further reference to Paneco please be placed on this thread as Paneco is not a true SIPs systems…..rather a composite system that, as I’ve eluded to in past posts, is fundamentally flawed.

Please do not let the Paneco disaster deter investigation into true Structural Insulated Panels (SIPS)…..as I say; research well!!!!!!.....

There are companies in Australia that make true SIPs based on MgO. These SIPS panels are being installed without problems. A very large part of the equation is minimising the involvement of timber, ensuring panels are treated as sole structural elements and having a producer who has investigated in the development of a structural grade Magnesia based panel skin.

SIPS, particularly MgO SIPS, are very much an infant business that will provide many future homeowners with affordable, highly energy efficient homes.

In relation to the high moisture levels mentioned in ‘grassyflats’ posts: it has been concluded these are erroneous figures as MgO sheets contain varying levels of salts; particularly Calcium Chloride. We conclude that this data was a red herring!

Posted Sunday 2 Feb 2014 @ 6:27:45 am from IP #
Greg_Werner
Member

I've posted a few times here (Page 7) in an effort to warn consumers of a PTY LTD that held itself out as a manufacturer of SIPs in Australia. They never made one piece.

I note today the the Licensor of the technology from America has assumed control of the website of the company and that all inquiries are directed to the head of the American company.

It's a good guess that the company -- in it's old form -- has gone away but as they say, "loose lips sink ships" and one should heed the words of a close insider who talked of a 'rebirth in different clothing'. In the American West the indigenous American prairie tribes would cover themselves in hides of other animals in order to creep-crawl up on unsuspecting prey.

I looks like it may be over but take caution: If if has 'Control' in the name due diligence is paramount.

Posted Tuesday 4 Feb 2014 @ 6:17:05 pm from IP #
Green Homes Canberra
Member

Hello Efficient Design, Can you tell me who does reliable SIPS in Australia.Mgo or OSB panels.I am not sure that "Paneco" still exist, 'R-Control" doesn't seem to really exist?!!!
We are looking to improve our homes to the highest level of energy efficient homes, and would like to find a reliable supplier of SIPS in the Canberra region.
Cheers

Posted Thursday 6 Feb 2014 @ 12:03:58 am from IP #
efficient design
Member

Hi Green Homes....
As far as I'm aware, there's no SIP supplier in the Canberra region, or even in NSW.....unfortunately, for many, the use of SIPS will involve many 'carbon miles'

I think it's fantastic that as a building company, you're endevouring to embrace a building methodology that economically achieves the "highest level of energy efficiency".

I'll send you a pm & we can discuss further.

Posted Thursday 6 Feb 2014 @ 2:21:53 am from IP #
MagTech
Member

Magtech in Adelaide is now constructing several SIP projects. For those who are keen to see of find out more about the Magroc SIP, feel free to flick me a private message where I am more than happy to discuss any upcoming projects you may be considering in SIP or any general questions you may have about this building system.

Posted Saturday 5 Apr 2014 @ 7:40:33 am from IP #
JBT
Member

Greetings All,
This is my first post so I'm learning the ropes.
I have read with interest many of the comments posted with regards to SIPS systems. For those who are considering this method of construction and live in Western Australia, there is a Perth based supplier and erector that I have been in contact with. They manufacture polyurethane panels and can face the panels with basically what ever sheet material you require provided it is structural ie hardieflex gyprock etc. The big advantage is that their external panels have offset joints (rebated) which provides a thermal break in the panel. All the other panels I have looked at do not have this feature. These panels have cyclone ratings and have no timber inserts and are suitable for termite prone areas. One of my main concerns with any of these SIPS systems is that regardless of how will you plan, if you need to run another power outlet in the future there are only two options available; either surface mount or chase. This manufacture can also provide a cavity panel system for external walls which provides a solution to this problem. For those who are interested the website is http://www.modular-systems.com.au Phone 08 93615800 contact Brendon McGovern. I found Brendon to be most helpful. There are also cost comparisons for his SIPS and double brick construction on this site.

Posted Monday 14 Jul 2014 @ 2:44:57 am from IP #
mykenlisa
Member

Hi there,
I have read through this whole forum and there is some great feedback although most relevant to what I am looking at is 2 - 3 years old.
I just wanted to follow up on anyone who has built using the R9 building panels (210mm external walls and 90mm internal walls) and ask their opinion of it. In particular the insulating factor and if they need air conditioning or heating. I am led to believe that in WA on a 40+ degree day that the ambient temperature inside a house built with R9 is around 23 degrees Celsius without any air conditioning. Is this a realistic achievement? We are looking at building a 3 level (split level) home in Queensland, with the plans in the process of being designed by our architect. We are wondering if we will need to allow ceiling space for ducted air conditioning. The company we are looking at is connected to the R9 Group from WA although it is an independent distributor in Qld. Was there any major flaw with this product - it seems almost too good to be true. I look forward to hearing feedback from anyone who has used this type of building material. Thanks in anticipation.

Posted Tuesday 29 Jul 2014 @ 5:03:37 am from IP #
gazmo88
Member

Only available from "selected builders and tradesmen" apparently.

Not a whole lot of tech info there either .... in fact none.

Looks like a different business model to that we have seen so far.

Posted Wednesday 6 Aug 2014 @ 5:18:31 am from IP #
Anonymous
Unregistered

Hi Gazmo,
the web site is being constructed now But we won't be putting to much technical information on there as much is our IP.
You will certainly see other panel (polystyrene) importers sell to anyone and everyone at varying prices every month. This is their prerogative but not how we work as we provide comprehensive technical training after sales service. Also, as there are no other companies offering our range of products or technology, simply supplying a price /m2 to end users wouldn't make sense. We are introducing our range gizmo through a range of architects and building companies. happy to supply more information if you require.

Posted Wednesday 6 Aug 2014 @ 5:42:41 am from IP #
tom
Member

Why is there is no R value on the site anywhere?

Posted Wednesday 6 Aug 2014 @ 9:34:26 pm from IP #
Anonymous
Unregistered

Hi Tom, R values on the entire range of products is coming and as I mentioned the web site will be completed in about 2 weeks and include these figures. the 100mm panel is 3.9, 75 mm and the 50mm is 2.2. These are far above polystyrene.

Posted Wednesday 6 Aug 2014 @ 10:58:14 pm from IP #
56chevy
Member

I've been following this thread for sometime as I'm considering SIPS for my build at the end of the year. I had been leaning towards Paneco, visiting factory etc, but got nervous after reading comments on this forum. And then I found out that Paneco had closed down?
Anyways, I was cruisin around Eagle Farm last week & decided I'd do a drive by past the old Paneco factory. Funny thing, the factory was working & there were pallets of panels being loaded onto a semi. I think the new factory sign now read 'Lifestyle Laminations'.
Question:- does anyone know about this company. Panels looked like Paneco to me though?
I'm now leaning towards the new Superior Panel SIPS that is currently being developed.

Posted Monday 1 Sep 2014 @ 9:17:14 am from IP #

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