Compressed solar-heated air to drive trains? So what is its Carnot cycle? And what size tank would you need?
New ideas & creative thinking
(169 posts) (24 voices)-
dymonite69
MemberPosted Monday 19 Oct 2009 @ 12:23:13 pm from IP # -
pauser
MemberSorry Dymonite, but the subject is way to complex to answer here, it's taken me weeks to read all the material at aircaraccess and after letting it all slide due to a house move, I've just re-read some and managed a clearer understanding. I can see from your reply that you have miss understood what I've written. The air is not solar heated as a separate sort of operation but that ALL air, all the time is solar heated. It therefore contains, even at zero degrees, embodied heat, because it is above absolute zero. If it wasn't solar heated, we wouldn't exist and the air would be frozen.
I'd say though, that from what I have read and understand, that the tanks, probably two or three, all different pressures, would not have to be too big. The designs at aircaraccess all rely on first being pumped up from a stationary pump or an on-board pump, using battery power. Then the engine runs as normal, drives the car and the auxiliary pumps that return exhaust air to a tank and alternator. Some designs use an equalizer, many use either heat exchangers or electric heating to increase the energy of the air. I know it sounds too good to be true but Scott isn't just blowing hot air here, he's done research for 30 years and has all the math and spreadsheets to support his contention that this is not only possible but has been done before in the U.S.. Not just by one inventor, but by several and as I said in my first post someone in Aust, possibly in Ballarat if my memory serves me. Some use simple converted refrigerator compressors, some use converted internal combustion engines and others use specifically designed combination pump/motors. Scott/Luthor has many patents, their drawings and articles on his web site plus reams of history. At the bottom of the home page there are 'New Articles, 2009'... read the one titled 'Bust My Bubbles', for an intro and his latest thinking. For a more in depth study I'd suggest starting with an article in the main index titled 'Maxwell's Demon Gets A Job'
Posted Monday 19 Oct 2009 @ 2:46:28 pm from IP # -
dymonite69
MemberPauser,
Addressing your comments:
1) Can compressed air be used as an energy source? Yes, as long as you can put a useful amount of energy into it
2) Does air contain heat energy? As long as its above absolute zero.
3) Is there much energy in uncompressed air? No, the volumetric heat capacity of air is extremely low
4) What is the source of energy to compress the air? Well here is the rub. You will need an external source of energy e.g. electricity, burning fuel etc
5) Are there losses associated with such a system? For sure. It is impossible to obtain reach the 100% efficiency of the Carnot cycle limit.
6) Does Maxwell Demon has anything to do with this? No, this was a philosophical postulate to break the 2nd law of thermodynamics. So far no-one has found this mythical creature in an compressed air engine. Maybe the LHC might discover one with the Higg's Boson? Like my desk, things tend towards entropy.Posted Tuesday 20 Oct 2009 @ 12:29:59 am from IP # -
On latest ATA meeting in Melbourne was presented problem of instability in Wind Turbine Farms output and proposed solution the use of newly developed hybrid lead acid battery with ultra-capacitor in-build.
I think that use of modern flywheel could be much more economical as buffer/compensators.
"Compared with other ways of storing electricity, FES systems have long lifetimes (lasting decades with little or no maintenance; full-cycle lifetimes quoted for flywheels range from in excess of 105, up to 107, cycles of use), high energy densities (100-130 W•h/kg, or 360-500 kJ/kg, and large maximum power outputs. The energy efficiency (ratio of energy out per energy in) of flywheels can be as high as 90%. Typical capacities range from 3 kWh to 133 kWh"Posted Tuesday 20 Oct 2009 @ 3:59:56 am from IP # -
transformrplanet
MemberSunshine,
to answer your question...you are looking at zero point energy.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzqDVOjtNhg
take a look at this because Steven Greer has been instrumental in trying to bring free energy to the world. This is just the tip of the iceberg really.
Posted Tuesday 20 Oct 2009 @ 10:16:08 am from IP # -
transformrplanet
MemberSun2stream,
as I said, we always ridicule what we don't understand. Lutec are really just an extremely tiny taste of what is available in the form of free energy.
I just wanted to merely illustrate what is happening in our own backyard (In Australia) as an example of what free energy is all about. You need to be able to see the micro and macrocosm of how our universe actually operates (and no, it is not what you are being taught at school) and unless you do the research about free energy, it is impossible to even begin to understand what is available and what has always been available to us for the last 50 or so years.
Really, it is no longer even a question of "IF" this technology exists. Because once you do the research you will know that undeniably it does. For the truth seekers out there, it is more a question of "WHY has it been hidden from us and how can we bring this to the worlds attention so that we can have what is rightfully ours?"
The whole reason I got onto this part of the forum was because I believe that it is time that people discover the real truth for themselves about free energy. Truth together with knowledge equals power. A lot of the technologies that the mainstream know about: solar/wind/geothermal all have their drawbacks and all cost the earth in some measure. If you think about what goes into the manufacture of a lot of these current technologies, they are still drawing upon our precious resources. Why do we continue to use these technologies when there is a whole spectrum of free energy supply just waiting to harvest?Posted Tuesday 20 Oct 2009 @ 10:55:39 am from IP # -
dymonite69
MemberIf I send in all my money to Lutec do I get a set of free steak knives? BTW are there any rules on this forum about advertisements and do we have any mods?
Posted Tuesday 20 Oct 2009 @ 12:20:32 pm from IP # -
transformrplanet
MemberDynomite69,
So now you can't mention a company name without it being advertising? Give me a break..I have no affiliations with any company whatsoever, I am a housewife!!!!!! And I simply mentioned the L company name as an example.
I am happy to not mention any names of any person or company if it makes everyone happy but geez Louise, don't try to shut someone up with the cry of "moderator" just because you think what I am talking about is bogus.Posted Wednesday 21 Oct 2009 @ 5:25:27 am from IP # -
transformrplanet
MemberAnd...my sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended by mentioning the "L" word if that is how you have taken it. I am used to being on forums where there are open minds and where people are thirsty for knowledge. If there is a rule here about mentioning company names, I apologise, apologise, apologise for that omission and it won't happen again. My only wish, is to convey new ideas as per the threads topic heading.
Posted Wednesday 21 Oct 2009 @ 5:39:14 am from IP # -
Sunshine
Membertransformrp,
Is anyone using this technology?
If it really works, why isn't there anyone using it yet?
I am sure power generation companies would love to lower their fuel burn in their power stations as it would save them money.
I have seen TV shows including "Mythbusters" about these devices and they aren't able to get any free energy out of these devices.
They all seemed to consume more energy than what they put out.Good luck to Lutec with the device, but they really need to showcase this device to the public to investers interested.
I am sure shows like "The New Inventors" on the ABC would be interested.
Anyway I have my own "free energy", it powers my home, heats the water, and heats the pool.. It's called solar.
Posted Wednesday 21 Oct 2009 @ 6:47:34 am from IP # -
dymonite69
MemberTtransformrp,
A new idea is nothing until it has been evaluated. Who remembers Peter Brock's Energy Polariser. The explanation on the company website is pseudoscience gobbledegook. Hence it is not worth referencing. Perhaps you can explain how you think this device works? Most people won't bother to invest in this idea unless they actually see a formal demonstration and an independent evaluation. But I am concerned that some gullible individuals might part with their hard-earned money for an unproven and dare I say bogus concept. Unfortunately, I smell a rat.
Posted Wednesday 21 Oct 2009 @ 8:14:32 am from IP # -
lazyerg
Memberat some risk , was attracted by the discussions to use output energies from appliances,or other "extant" sources: electrical transformers are basically overheated oil baths(that occassionally explode) but they could be used as heat sources. avoiding future cooling loads looks necessary by
1. improved building efficiency(capped glazing areas, higher thermal massand resorting to the older style cellars and bunkers: the japanese used to use Ice cellars to store snow for use in their extreme (humid) wet season(I know lousy evanotranspiration etc)
2. maybe fewer appliances, without bells and whistles and wind-up funtions in-lieu of battery: (pedal computers)
3. avoiding piezo-electric starts (although matches are far more hazardous)
4. ventilation strategies v/s urban noise
5. better kllighting using LED's and smart grid & meter technology
I noted when staying briefly in Rome (Same trip)only 3rd O/S in 36 years double glazing (with swank tilt adjusting insulated metal/plastic louvres were all de-riguer ), along with heaps of fan-coil /heat-pump units (with much attendant fannoise , preventling passive ventilation strategies because of ambient sound.
on said overseas sojourn saw the cisternas and cellars that are common in Croatia, and Italy (& much of europe): these are practical,(along with chook-sheds and gardens) DIY amendments that are more useful than home theatres or pools.
I still don't understand why hydronic systems cannot be efficiently coupled (or preheated by Solar preheat and possibly ground coupled heat-pump: essentially the "transfer" or "storage" method must be robust and inexpensive.
I know the heat output requirements vary: winter heating v/s virtuallly constabnt heat demand for DHWS, with solar peak clearlyopposite winter demand(but phase lag of soil temperatures allows some strategies (eg earth proteced houses where space permits.I have encountered air/ water hybrids including a Vulcan Ducted gas unit which had aheat exchanger which interfaced with radiant hydronic panels(installed in the 1950's in highett, still operating succesfully).
spanyone inteersted in advising the limitatiosnof heat transfer: or do I have to do an engineering course in thermodymanics to sort my dynes from my ergs and caloriesPosted Thursday 22 Oct 2009 @ 11:58:14 am from IP # -
dymonite69
MemberLazyerg,
Some of the things you mentioned have already been done locally such as co-generation or tri-generation using waste industrial heat to drive other devices. Absorption chillers are an example.
The usual reason for lower uptake of energy efficient solutions in Oz are:
1) Cheap and plentiful energy (brown coal)
2) Lack of demand for efficient products
3) A comparatively mild climate (the energy intensity of a country correlates well with its climate)
4) Governments that are fairly moderate on issues of energy policy
3) Hence an immature industry, lack of competiveness etcSimple things like double glazing (let alone triple glazing) is either not cost-efficient to retrofit or even cost-prohibitive. Local quality varies dramatically.
You also have to be wary about translating construction techniques across regions. A sensitive appreciation of how this interacts with climate is required e.g. mean temperatures, diurnal variations, humidity, insolation. There is not a once size fits all solution and building research in Australia is fairly limited.
The theory of load balancing energy requirements between winter and summer sounds appealing but so far we do not have cheap, efficient methods of energy storage. The idea of storing summer energy to heat houses in winter is appealing. Examples are the PAHS and AGS geothermal storage techniques. However, the experience is limited and not been verified. High thermal mass buildings also tend to be expensive and high in embodied energy. It's not even been shown that the extra investment yields that much better performance. The reality is that moisture and ground water can easily leach your energy gains away. If it really worked, we would be using dirt as energy storage for a lot of things.
I am not a big fan of hydronics. They are a comfortable way of heating but they don't save any more energy than if you used a convective heating system. You would need a huge solar collecting area if you wish to couple it usefully to a solar-pre-heat.
Geothermal is promising but excavation costs are also high even before you put the hardware in.. Digging down always adds huge costs to construction e.g. earth sheltering, earth berming
I think more of the efficiency gains for construction are actually low-tech. Good passive design, better attention to construction detailing and insulation have huge impacts. By the time you are talking about CFLS, LED lights and induction cookers you are mostly tweaking around the edges. Most houses don't need huge amounts of thermal mass, fancy glazing solutions or complex HVAC systems (don't even talk to me about PV). The problem is not because we can't cheaply and easily build an efficient house, we just lack a building industry motivated to do so.
Posted Thursday 22 Oct 2009 @ 8:47:46 pm from IP # -
I just finished my micro project with positive result. As many of you, I have plenty tools in garage powered by battery (drills, screwdrivers, hummers, torches, etc) Most of them used once in the year so battery is usually flat when you need them. Another dilemma - charge from time to time without perspective to use device in near future - pure waste, sometimes I found my charger left for a week of two on. I took a couple of solar cell from old discarded garden lights soldier short wires and crocodile clips. Each cell produces at least 4.2V – enough to charge 2 -3 NiMH cells. I should use diode too to protect from discharging battery too. Connected to my rechargeable battery small device can keep tools once loaded always ready? For bigger voltage more cells is needed. I used also cheap DC-DC converter ($20) to charge 18V drill from this tiny garden solar cell. Converter change anything from 3V to 40V DC
Summarizing.
If brand new solar lights at Bunnings cost few dollars, then purpose build charger consisting of cell, wire and crocodile clips shouldn’t be more then couple dollars. With just enough output to keep battery pack always top up without risking overcharging. Even can be used to charge other stationery devices – clock on the wall, fire alarms, and many other items that use battery and we have to replace all quite often.Posted Thursday 22 Oct 2009 @ 10:36:42 pm from IP # -
*Rant alert.
Suggesting that the world's combined engineering and scientific resources have somehow been stopped from bringing a miracle cure to our energy problems through a government or big business conspiracy is really quite unreasonable. There are hundreds of employed engineers/scientists and hundreds of self-employed engineers/scientists who would all love to develop new technologies. There is no way that a conspiracy could be maintained. Instead of propogating myth, rumour and resentment about in conspiracy theories I think people's time would be more productively spent making the sensible improvements to energy efficiency and consumption in their lives that are backed by demonstratable science.
*Rant over.
Posted Friday 23 Oct 2009 @ 1:27:18 am from IP # -
With all respect the last thing I want to see now is FREE UNLIMITED CHEAP ENERGY developed right now. First thing we should learn is to rationalize and conserve that energy available now. Sudden drop in oil prices decades ago killed electric vehicle and hang any renewable energy development for many years. Now hopefully we are going back to $150/barrel. Why to use double glazing if energy is cheap, switch to smaller cars, turn of lighting, not waste fresh water?
If cost nothing, save nothing.
So I am not surprised if first nuclear fusion power plant will be blow up by “greens”.Posted Friday 23 Oct 2009 @ 2:09:58 am from IP # -
mizun
MemberLutec says.........
"A DC input current either from a battery bank or from rectified AC mains is supplied to a DC motor comprised............."
So where do I get the "Battery Bank" free???? Please understand - nothing is free in this world except the polluted air we breate"
Some are discussing "Compressed Air". Yes,Atlas Copco(Swedish major)had loader-dumper working on compressed air and were called "Cavo". I had handled many of them as an yound engineer with them in Indian copper and lead mines. But then compressed air is not free!!! Each mine used to have 500-1500HP air compressors.
So other than "Solar" dont look to anything else.
Mo
Posted Tuesday 2 Mar 2010 @ 5:40:09 pm from IP # -
Michael L.
MemberIf you can discount the cost of the necessary infrastructure, the best free energy is below our feet. Currently in Victoria, just north of Anglesea, there is a pilot programme for a geothermal power station using heat from FREE hot water from the ground. This station will not only provide cheap electricity, it will also be used to power a de-salination plant. All heat from geothermal stations is FREE, and renewable, and available 24/7/365, it just initially costs a lot to take advantage of it.
Posted Wednesday 3 Mar 2010 @ 3:41:59 am from IP # -
If you are lucky enought to be in Melbourne there is a free launch of the great new book tonight at 6:30pm. Screw Light Bulbs - Smarter solutions for Australia's Future is a brilliant work by these two ladies and I have a copy from our local library already.
http://www.readings.com.au/event/liz-minchin-and-donna-green-book-launch
If you go please post some feedback.
Posted Wednesday 21 Apr 2010 @ 12:45:25 am from IP # -
The Sixth Wave. Another good book to look for at your local library.
“Waste, services, and the convergence of digital and natural worlds are where investors who want to catch the next wave of innovation should be putting their money, say the authors of The Sixth Wave
http://sixthwave.org/?page_id=36
There is a nice 2min video on what it's all about.
Posted Wednesday 21 Apr 2010 @ 11:03:50 pm from IP # -
Jon Dee's new book for greening up the business sector is available for free download.
http://about.sensis.com.au/small-business/free-sustainable-growth-book/
Can't go past the price.
Posted Tuesday 4 May 2010 @ 10:05:05 pm from IP # -
Very good article from Richard Heinberg on China's use of coal, carbon capture and how they are making use of other technologies in parallel. Thought provoking.
Quote: "Conclusion: “clean coal” is an idea whose time will never come."
After reading this you will see why energy efficiency is the key to our ongoing survival. My personal target for home use is around 4-5kWh/day, most of it is to be supplied by solar if possible. That's about 20% of my 1990 level.
His main page has lots of other stuff
Posted Friday 7 May 2010 @ 9:54:29 pm from IP # -
dymonite69
MemberInteresting article. China's per capital energy use is one quarter of the West. These projections suggest that they will hit a very big wall within 20 years. So how will we be preparing ourselves as our consumption rates are four times the world average.
Posted Saturday 8 May 2010 @ 12:14:12 am from IP # -
ABC bush telegraph had a very good segment on the CSIRO Zero emission house near Melbourne. Listen here.
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/telegraph/content/2010/s2894932.htm
Posted Tuesday 11 May 2010 @ 2:11:47 am from IP # -
Some interesting views on the internet and it's good and bad sides here.
http://www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2010/05/18//2902902.htm
Posted Monday 24 May 2010 @ 5:22:22 am from IP # -
dymonite69
MemberThe internet amplifies the message. More signal and more noise.
Posted Monday 24 May 2010 @ 8:25:15 am from IP # -
Australian researchers are at the forefront of research yet again. Professor Michelle Simmons.
"The Australian team has been able to fabricate an electronic device entirely out of crystalline silicon where we have replaced just seven individual silicon atoms with phosphorus atoms. That is amazing exactness.
Posted Monday 24 May 2010 @ 11:11:59 pm from IP # -
ABC2 tonight at 8:30, the Human Power Station. Should be a good show.
This bold and ambitious program reveals in the starkest terms the amount of energy we use and waste in our homes.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc2/201005/programs/ZX0938A001D2010-05-26T213000.htm
Posted Tuesday 25 May 2010 @ 9:50:54 pm from IP # -
ABC2 tonight at 8:30, the Human Power Station. Should be a good show.
This bold and ambitious program reveals in the starkest terms the amount of energy we use and waste in our homes.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc2/201005/programs/ZX0938A001D2010-05-26T213000.htm
Posted Tuesday 25 May 2010 @ 9:52:04 pm from IP #
