I want to replace my 50w halogen down lights and some GU10 lights with LED'S and some of the prices I have seen are quite high. Where do I go for a good priced LED?
Who is the cheapest to get LED light from
(45 posts) (14 voices)-
Lance
Key MasterTaz, there's lots around, plenty on ebay, but quality varies a bit. We have been trialling a couple of MR16 lamps from Deal Extreme here in the office and they are doing well, there's a GU10 equivalent on their site, have a look at http://www.dealextreme.com/p/gu10-4-led-360-lumen-3500k-warm-white-light-bulb-85-265v-ac-44577 but also do a search on GU10 and you will see a few more. Always make sure you read the ratings and reviews of each item, some will be better than others and it will give you an idea of what to avoid...
My personal preference is to remove GU10 and MR16 fittings and replace them with something more suited to LED use, either ES27 downlight cans with an appropriate LED bulb or a dedicated LED fittings such as http://cgi.ebay.com/Nichia-12-1-Watt-LED-Recess-Down-Light-Warm-White-2800K-/110467308192?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19b85d5aa0
Posted Thursday 17 Mar 2011 @ 2:17:03 am from IP # -
do you want a complete replacement (light output) or something that will plug into the same fitting?
Posted Thursday 17 Mar 2011 @ 5:07:40 am from IP # -
Hi Taz,
A few points, watch out for the over estimates on wattages, there are companies claiming high wattages (and by implications high light output) however when you read the fine print they don't run at those wattages at all.
Also make sure you buy an Australian certified transformer, if you're going down the 12V path, don't risk uncertified stuff it's not worth the risk fire/insurance wise.
A few months ago we sourced a perfect replacement LED bulb for a 12V Halogen. High quality CREE diodes, fits into most fitting, really nice extra warm white colour (around 2800K), 60% more light output than other advertised CREE 3x3W MR16 globes (which actually run at around 5W), ours actually runs at 8W (the larger heat sink allows the higher power).
But we've had such trouble selling them, due to misinformation in the industry that I'm thinking about leaving the LED market completely. I'm actually selling out of them on ebay at the moment at cost price if you want to pick up some up to see if you like them...
Posted Thursday 17 Mar 2011 @ 12:38:48 pm from IP # -
This is really helpful. Thanks Lance for that link to the website, it's hard to find LED lights at stores locally, and when you do find them it's hard to do comparisons with the bulbs you're replacing. There is talk of - "this replaces a 20W globe" etc, and as a result many are just too dim - suitable for a night light at best.
Perhaps the ATA should campaign for all lighting to be rated in lumens / light output to allow comparison rather than just on input under the old incandescents.
Trying to find replacements for existing light fittings is confusing, and I've even ended up buying hallogen replacement globes as an interim step. I'd hate to see how non-ATA members try and cope (give up most likely).
Anyone got any ideas for replacing my old R80s? They're 60W, but I've got no idea what that means in lumens.
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 3:35:22 am from IP # -
mythbuster1
MemberHere's a link to an Australian website that sells LED R80s and they use 8 Watts. http://www.gwarehouse.com.au/products/led-r80-downlight-bulb-8-watt-e27
Their Lumen is 750. I haven't been able to find these anywhere else. Installed 4 last week - they're fantastic.
Be careful with the deal extreme downlights - they're only rated for 240V which is typical of "off-the-shelf" LEDs for the Chinese market.
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 3:57:28 am from IP # -
ghostgum
MemberThe R80s are much easier to replace with LED, being a reflector lamp, and physically larger than the halogen MR16.
60W is about 700-800 lumens according to one page I saw.
This would be replaced by an "LED bulb" using 10W and generating 800 lumens.
However, 80lm/W "LED bulbs" are currently expensive, and 40lm/W are cheap.Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 4:04:22 am from IP # -
mythbuster1
MemberSorry, the dealdirect downlights actually only rated 220V even though the heading implies a greater voltage range. What's their beam angle? If it's less than 60 degrees then it's only good for a reading lamp.
Gwarehouse also has some really well made LED GU10 downlights - they say that their 6W bulb is a better than direct replacement for a 50W halogen.
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 4:04:33 am from IP # -
mythbuster1
MemberThe Gwarehouse R80 is 93 lm/W and costs $39.95 - that's not expensive
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 4:06:44 am from IP # -
mythbuster1
MemberI prefer pure white - it's better for my eyes. I always say, if you want warm light, light a candle - after all that's where the "warm glow" started.
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 4:42:07 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterMB1, you're in the minority there I'm afraid, most of the people I talk to find daylight (5500K or above) too stark, 6500K is way too blue for most people, except in kitchens maybe, the majority seem to prefer a warmer light.
The Gwarehouse 6W GU10 is rated at 390 lumens, that's less than half the light of a 50 watt halogen, as expected, so not a direct replacement if you don't want a reduction in light output. They seem to be a bit lacking in the heatsinking department too for their wattage ratings, so I am not impressed, they look like bog standard common $10 chinese lamps to me.
If you mean the Deal Extreme lights, I have a number of their lamps rated at 220 volts and they are fine on 240, have been for about a year now. Generally, they rate them at 220V as most countries use that voltage and only a few use 230 volts (Australia is technically 230V now, but you'd never know it from the voltages many people see in their homes). In most cases the 220 volt rated units will work fine. Indeed, with many CFLs and similar, there's no difference between the 220V and 240V rated units except what's printed on the lamp, and LEDs are the same.
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 5:41:57 am from IP # -
mythbuster1
MemberI think you've gotten yourself confused with lumens and lux and the effect of the fitting, lensing, colour temp etc on the actual light output detected.
A 50W halogen starts with a lumen of around 800 - so it looks pretty bright on the ceiling. Lux at 1m quickly drops to 600 then to 150 at 2m which is typical bench height. Halogen light output is lost in the reflector and the glass cover.
By comparison, the 6W GU10 from Gwarehouse has a Lux of 250 at 2m.You can actually visit the Gwarehouse showroom and see the downlights, oysters and all different types of LED lights in action for yourself. These guys really seem to know what they're talking about.
As for your 220V rated downlights - tell me how they're going in say another year. There is no way Australian voltage remains at 230V - it can vary from 210 to 260/265V depending on where you live.
Your cheapy downlights won't be able to handle it.
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 6:26:18 am from IP # -
mythbuster1
MemberHere's the link to the LED Downlight Comparison chart where I found the above info
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 6:49:44 am from IP # -
the 6W gu10 that can achieve 250 at 2m is definitely not the same beam angle as the 50w halogen your example above makes reference to, which makes the example useless.
You will also find all of the lumens stated are a bit on the high side....
eg. "The Gwarehouse R80 is 93 lm/W and costs $39.95" I would say closer to 60lm/w in that fixture.Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 7:15:25 am from IP # -
I think I can see why there is a market developing for halogen replacement bulbs. About twice the price, 30% energy saving, like for like compared to the old ones, no need to worry about frequencies or lumens etc. Alas are LEDs still an emerging technology for mere mortals like myself?
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 7:29:44 am from IP # -
ghostgum
Membermythbuster1, I agree with Think Wise's observation that the beam spread of that 6W GU10 must be different to the halogen.
Deepfried, LED bulbs will be an important light for most people, but there is still some improvement expected. The current efficiencies are generally about the same as CFL, or about 40-60lm/W. I expect to see that double, which will make them better than fluorescent lights. The range and performance of LED lights available now is much better than 12 months ago, and will continue to improve.
One big problem is the prevalence of MR16 Halogen lights. These are physically small and so not really big enough for the heatsink required of a 12W LED (at 60lm/W). When we get to 120lm/W in LED "bulbs", then we will have 6W LED "bulb" with light output closer to a 50W halogen.
More diffuse LED lighting from larger fittings is available now. It depends on whether you prefer the point light source look (MR16 halogen), or more even lighting (fluoro, LED panels, LED in oyster, etc.)
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 9:44:03 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterMB1, sorry, no, not confused, know a bit about lighting, been doing this for a few years and sell LEDs through my own business. The lux rating is intensity and is only useful for task lighting, most downlights are used as ambient lighting and the total light output is more useful. The LED bulbs you mention are brighter on-axis because of a narrower beam angle than the average halogen, most of the 60 degree LED bulbs are more like 30 degrees, the numbers the manufacturers come up with are pure fantasy most of the time.
It keeps coming back to the issue that downlights, at least the MR16/GU10 replacement varieties, are not much good for ambient lighting, they are designed for spot/task lighting and that's where they should be used. Unfortunately, offering a LED bulb replacement doesn't improve lighting levels and in many cases makes things worse. That is why I tell people that if they have 50mm sized downlights, then remove them and replace them with ES downlight cans so they can run LED lamps up to 10 watts or so. The wider light dispersion does a much better job of lighting a room and you can choose from a large variety of LED, CFL etc bulbs with a variety of beam angles right up to 180 degrees.
Alternatively, use dedicated LED fittings, there's a huge range in beam angles from very narrow to 180 degrees, they are much better suited to ambient lighting than halogen replacement bulbs.
Yes, aware of the variable voltages across the grid in Oz, that's why I said in my last post "Australia is technically 230V now, but you'd never know it from the voltages many people see in their homes". I have had a few LED bulbs pop their drivers, but they were designed several years ago, more recent ones have all been fine. It doesn't worry me, if they stop I just fix them, though realise most people can't do that. But the difference between a 220 volt and 240 volt bulb is just slightly higher voltage ratings on a few components, it's not like they have to be completely redesigned, so there's no excuse for 240 volt bulbs costing 4 times as much as a common 220 volt unit. Besides, many bulbs, even the cheap ones, now have universal voltage inputs of 100-265 volts, so they only have to make one bulb design to service the whole world, which makes a lot of sense...
Posted Friday 18 Mar 2011 @ 10:42:44 am from IP # -
engineer
MemberDear Forum
I am the owner of Gwarehouse and also the engineer designing the led products on our website. I was given the details of this forum by a customer of ours and they thought I should have a look at comments that have been posted.
Reading through the forum there is a lot of typical misunderstandings about what led lighting is, what it can do, how heat is controlled, how drivers are designed,lumen relevance, light angles and lux calculations.
I thank Myth buster for the kind comments about our products you have obviously tried them and proven for yourself the specifications that we provide are correct!
After distributing some 300,000 + led products into the Australian market over many years, with full testing compliance for supplying electrical products in this country, I think I am better placed than the people on this forum to decide what makes a good led product and what doesn't.
The key factor in lighting is Lux, there is absolutely no relevance in comparing lumen alone when formulating calculations and designing a light product. Diodes come in over 60 different formats and can be used specificely to the light task and lux required. The comments you all have made above are typical retail lighting store or electrician type comments. As an engineer that designs led products for schools, government, shipping, commercial and domestic applications I can tell you that there is so much more to it than just slapping in a driver, heat sink and diode into a shell.
We have many trade secrets to our products and we tend not to discuss manufacture with anyone as we tend to get copied, so please dont ask about specifics because you will not be told, but I am happy to cover some basics with you.
RegardsPosted Sunday 20 Mar 2011 @ 5:33:40 am from IP # -
Ah engineer, you make the mistake of thinking that technical excellence makes the best product. Ultimately the final choice made by a consumer is likely to be made on cost, appearance and functionality, and often in that order. As a technician with 35 years experience I have often failed to convince customers that the higher priced, better designed product is the best choice mostly because my narrow technical appraisal doesn't take into account other considerations.
Recently I chose $7 Woolworths GU10 3W Warm White LEDs for some long term testing and have been perfectly happy with them. What is suitable for one customer may be unsuitable for others and the application for which it has been selected. If you can match that I'll certainly be interested in your products.
Posted Sunday 20 Mar 2011 @ 5:48:41 am from IP # -
engineer
MemberRockabye, if you haven't tried something better then I guess you're going to be somewhat content with what you've got - for now. In my experience, the customer that goes for the cheapest option, eventually comes back looking for something better. In the case of the $7 Woolies' lights, you get what you paid for.
Good luck with that.
Posted Sunday 20 Mar 2011 @ 7:06:25 am from IP # -
Without directly targeting your products I can offer the following opinion on LED lighting in general. I actually have tried something better, some $40 & $60 Led lights and my $7 ones were about 80% as good subjectively by myself and the person who owned the more expensive ones. The more expensive lights were worth $12 tops.
The consumer is being overcharged by ridiculous amounts for LED lights. I can buy a new laptop with a 10' display, 160gb HDD, keyboard and operating system for under $200 and it has 4 Leds as well
The prices being charged for LED lighting is outrageous. These things cost a pittance to make and we are paying through the nose.A price around $5-$10 max is the justifiable price range for these items. Hence that's what I buy. When the ripoff ends the consumer will buy these by the truckload. Until then you will lose big sales to ebay and discount stores even if it is inferior product.
Posted Sunday 20 Mar 2011 @ 7:59:16 am from IP # -
engineer
MemberAll I can say is make sure your insurance covers you for faulty electrical products. LEDs at this price should not be in the market as they are dangerous and clearly the manufacturers have taken shortcuts. They are the cheap chinese copy led chips - buyer beware. You have been conned.
I too could easily supply you with $10 LEDs but it would be criminally negligent of me to do so. Please forward all products and/or brand names in this price range to the Department of Fair Trading to check compliance with EN certification and Australian standards.
Posted Sunday 20 Mar 2011 @ 9:10:11 am from IP # -
I'm sorry but that is a load of rubbish. The manufacturing cost of quality LED's is about 10 cents. Packaged up with electronics & heatsink would be less than a $1 on the scale these devices are being produced. We are being conned by high profit importers into believing otherwise.
Another comparison, a 16GB USB drive with manufacturing cost of 20 cents and no moving parts sells for $16, while a 1TB HDD with moving parts cost $64 with ext power supply full of electronics. LED lights should be a few dollars tops.
Your insurance argument is a typical fear driven response used to intimidate and worry people into paying exorbitant prices for low cost products. How about the multitude of house fires from halogen downlights? I'd say using LED lighting will drop these events dramatically. Can you point to any house fires started with LED lights with or without certification?
The 'bluff and bullshit' arguments used to justify high prices are fortunately ignored by most people.
Posted Sunday 20 Mar 2011 @ 9:39:06 am from IP # -
ghostgum
Memberengineer wrote "The key factor in lighting is Lux, there is absolutely no relevance in comparing lumen alone when formulating calculations and designing a light product.".
Lux alone is insufficient. My LED headlamp puts out 520lx at 1m, so 130lx at 2m. There is no way I would consider it a suitable light source over a kitchen bench.
The key factors are lux at the working distance, and how the light is distributed. If you have the Lux and light distribution graph, then that may be enough. Otherwise lumens is required to compare the overall light output.
No point in replacing a halogen which has a 300lx on the work surface and 60 degree beam width, with an LED with 300lx on the work surface, but a beam width of only 30 degrees. You are going to end up with unintended light and dark patches in the room.
In Europe, globes are now being dual marked in both watts and lumens, so people can compare how much light is generated.
I note that for your
LED Downlight Replacement Bulb 6 Watt 240V GU10 Fitting
you do not include the lux figures, nor the graph of the light output vs angle.Posted Sunday 20 Mar 2011 @ 11:18:56 am from IP # -
Good work TAZ!!
I think there are some great points in here, which is great for someone who wants that little bit of extra information.
I think a good conclusion with lux vs lumen is that either of those pieces of data alone means very little to the consumer, once an accurate beam angle is added then light distribution can be worked out.
I still very much doubt 'engineer' that any of your products are actually producing 100 fixture lm/w even the best opal diffusers drop light by 10-15% which means you are producing 120lm/w at the LED which isn't really feasible for those prices. That said there are lots of companies over inflating their lumen output which means legitimate companies may need to add a little extra to look competitive while specs aren't being regulated.
Without being in the industry rockabye please don't speculate what LED's cost, moreover why isn't Woolworths selling these LED's anymore? Sure designing a cheap LED is viable but not for 10cents like you claim and like engineer said, good luck to them! When I offer a 5 year warranty I want to make sure the product will last that long.
Posted Sunday 20 Mar 2011 @ 11:47:30 pm from IP # -
But I am in the electronics industry TW. I'm also in the disability sector and we are being sucked dry by business and we are being ripped off big time. Batteries in the USA $150, same brand size here $350. An electric wheelchair costs more than a Hyundai Excel with air, c/locking, power steering and 5 year warranty.
My son worked at a national electronics chain and was always told to sell a $89.95 power board with surge protector with all new PC's. He found out why one day when he was looked at the store incoming price list. They were supplied at $3 each.
Leds are very low cost electronics and manufactured in their millions. I doubt very much that the imported products selling for $30-$90 are coming in for any more than $5. 100% markup should see retail at volume at no more than $10.
I am happy to support you or anyone else but have been around long enough to know how pricing works. You will have overheads, warranty claims etc but the internet and large supermarket pricing makes alternatives so cheap your going to need to work hard to capture market share. The cheaper halogen replacement LEDs work fine for my applications as 12hr night lights and workbench lighting. My IKEA battery, solar charged 1W Led lamp for $20 makes a brilliant reading light with zero grid power needed.
I'm sorry to say but I don't need high priced LEDs and advise everyone I know to steer clear of them when cheaper alternatives can do the job.
Posted Monday 21 Mar 2011 @ 12:34:01 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterYep, I have to agree with rockabye, things are way overpriced in Oz, but part of the prob is the relentless push by the unions for higher wages. They don't seem to realise that the more you push up wages, the more you push up manufacturing costs and hence the end cost of Oz made products, until they reach the point of being uncompetitive in the global market. There's a simple reason why Oz made goods are generally so expensive, even in Australia.
The battery example is a good one. What amazes me is that a battery that costs $150 in the US costs $350 here even if it is just an equivalent size and type but is actually made here. Even though we have a large lead industry, lead-based batteries are still more expensive than imported ones from the US. How does that work? It's called 'charging what the market will bear'.
Unfortunately, the same is happening in several other renewable industries. I can buy a complete evac tube solar water heater imported from asia for $1200, including a 304 stainless tank, copper heat exchanger, 30 evac tubes with a 25mm hail test rating etc etc. To buy the equivalent Aust made will cost around $5000 or more. Yet, I can buy from Oz manufacturers a pair of solar collector panels for $1200 and a stainless electric water heater to suit for $1k; all up, $2200. Yet to buy those same or similar components as a set called a 'solar water heater' I have to pay double that. Clearly some profiteering is happening.
Getting back to LED bulbs, while the sorts of LEDs used in most LED bulbs, ie 1 to 3 watt power LEDs, are not made for just a few cents, they are made for a $1 or two, so there's still no justification for $40 for a LED bulb. The drivers used in those sorts of bulbs are dirt cheap, I buy them for $1-$2 retail from chinese suppliers, the rest of the lamp is just a bit of aluminium and plastic, very cheap materials. All up, most LED lamps would only cost a dollar or two to make.
Having said that, one thing that does add to the cost is the extra certification required in Oz. What really bugs me is how we constantly require retesting of devices that already have certs from other countries. Yes, some certs are faked by some suppliers, but even genuinely certified products have to be retested here, it's just a waste of time, money and effort. Even more annoying is that, despite this extra testing, there's no guarantee that the device will perform any better or be any safer than an untested device. There's heaps of certified devices on the market that are unsafe in my opinion (I mentioned them elsewhere in another topic on the forums) yet they still pass testing here...
Posted Monday 21 Mar 2011 @ 12:58:52 am from IP # -
I can guarantee that is not that case at least for my company, I rarely make more than 25% when selling to wholesalers, the markup on the little stuff might be closer to 30-40% (>5w) but we are talking about a few dollars here and there. If anything goes wrong, extra shipping charges etc then the profit disappears.
For instance our 28w street light the cost is close to $200.00 due to the CREE chip needed to pass Aus standards.
Lance,
Decent mr16 chips are not $1-2 unfortunately most lamps use public molds so its hard to know whats really in the light.
I completely agree about the extra testing etc. It has been the bane of my life as the rules keep changing. Although the market that I am aiming at means all my competitors have to do the same so I am not fussed about ebay sellers offloading illegal products.Whats the shipping cost on that solar unit?
Posted Monday 21 Mar 2011 @ 1:06:12 am from IP #
