Alternative Technology Assn Forums

1. 

   me3neuralfibrecom
   Member

   Bear with me here.
   I'm concerned about smart grids being whacked under a green initiative.

   To my thinking
   a) They reduce the overall cost of the grid (no carbon saving there)
   b) They increase the carriers profit margin (no carbon saving there)
   c) They reduce the need to buy peak power on demand (no carbon saving there)
   d) THey increase the use if baseload (coal) and decrease peaking (commonly gas) - carbon increase.
   e) They reduce the material required to build the grid (possibly an embodied carbon saving)

   So to me - it looks like they save the nergy companies heaps of money, and may actually produce more carbon due to mroe cheap baseload. Sounds like greenwashing to me.

   What do you think?

   Paul

   Posted Tuesday 22 Feb 2011 @ 5:53:09 am from IP #
2. 

   Sam M
   Member

   Hi Paul. Something worth thinking about.

   Efficiency improvements may not always result in overall (long term) improvements.
   Jevons Paradox
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

   This theory was written regarding coal use in the industrial revolution. Many energy efficiency experts and economists dismiss this theory and have very robust modern era data to prove it. But there are examples of products where efficiency use that has cut cost of use has resulted in expanded use. Such as cars and fridges where bigger cars and a 'beer' fridge are commonplace.

   I think that demand management often saves generators/retailers more money than the actual demand management costs as they have less transmission infrastructure and can avoid generator expansion, which is good and results in less carbon. As peak residential load is later than you would expect - after 10pm - there is still a very large role to play by peak load more efficient generators that the smart grid may not cater for. In the long term though what you are saying could unfotunately delay a major shift away from baseload coal.

   Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 3:51:40 am from IP #
3. 

   munter
   Member

   I have raised concerns with the environmental credentials of TOU billing (sometimes considered part of the smart grid) on a few forums and haven't yet seen a convincing argument in its favour. I previously strongly supported the idea but now that I understand that it results in a higher proportion of our electricity being produced from coal fired generation I am not so sure. I think other aspects of "smart grids" could yield environmental benefits but TOU on its own simply appears like a way to improve the itlisation of our existing generation and transmission assets.

   It was partly for this reason that I decided to stay on a flat rate tariff for my electricity.

   Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 4:29:10 am from IP #
4. 

   Russell Moore
   Member

   Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how the incoming NSW Lib/NP government will amalgamate the three energy providers into two? Who will disappear? EA, IE, or CE?

   I know that EA is a big supporter of TOU meters.

   Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 6:01:03 am from IP #
5. 

   Andy Chee
   Member

   For an another view of how smart grids could work, take a look at the BZE ZCA2020 plan.

   Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 7:57:13 am from IP #
6. 

   Jeffbloggs
   Member

   Sam M
   Very interesting theory. Something that has been plaguing my mind for the last year or so. How is it possible to increase efficiency without increasing demand due to more resource availability, further perpetuating economic growth (ie inflation), and how to transition from fossil to RE, without the need for RE to be economically subsidized by fossils ie through a carbon tax/trade? I think the problem lies within the economic structure of our capitalist system, just like the TOUs and smart meters try to enforce that type of economic system, with the justification of them supposedly "enabling" RE. After all it's "against the law" for a corporation to be managed in such a way as to NOT make a profit.

   Posted Sunday 27 Feb 2011 @ 3:34:12 pm from IP #

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