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To LED now or wait ?

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Started 11 years ago by bundy
Latest reply from haldane

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bundy
Member

Hello, I have read with interest some of the LED posts on here and am still very undecided if LED is yet the way to go over existing Halogen offerings.

Just as a quick background, I am undertaking a major house renovation and as far as lighting goes we are looking at the use of approximately 40 Downlights throughout the house and outdoor areas. Some of these will be high use such as living areas and others low use such as bathrooms. The house is our "20 year" house so we will be here for a long time to come.

Now my dilemma is cost V reward of LED as it stands at the moment as well as performance. A good LED is in the vicinity of $100 upward per unit whilst a good quality Halogen is in the vicinity of $30 - $40.

I know Halogen will work in high ceilings (We have an old heritage house with 3.5m ceilings) but as for LED perfromance it is a bit of an unknown (To me anyway)

My heart says go LED but my head says not yet as I may end up paying a lot of money and being dissapointed with the result and cost.

My interim solution is I am strongly thinking to go with the most efficient Halogens and transformers I can find (All on Dimmers) and when the LED technology gets up to scratch switch the light units (Hopefully using the same transformers) down the track.

Do the wise men and women on here think this is a reasonable option based on the above?

Thanks

Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 8:19:50 am from IP #
Greenozi
Member

I had similiar dilema just short time ago. Brand new home and what lights to use.
I found this and was close to install 50 of this lights LED

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130448524996&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_5149wt_905

at $50 per piece is no brainier for very modern LED down-lights.

but later on I decided to wait and do more research or do my own design if could not find what I am looking for.
Actually I think that perforating ceiling (if not done already) is not the best idea,
so I invented new type of globe, that follow Andy advice will start looking if already available to purchase. In short - down light disadvantage is that directs light in very narrow angle, since some other traditional designs use white ceiling to nicely disperse light in the room. Because I have short very plain cheapest lights already installed by the builder I will be looking for this fancy light LED light bulb.
It looks like your CD ROM disk or bigger and is mounted like upside down mushroom inside standard fixture. on the edge of this CD ROM mushroom like plate are several individual LED lights that could swivel to point up or down. If this mushroom has fixed lights that some points to the ceiling some to floor that still acceptable.
Now when I know what I want I could start looking where to buy..

Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 9:52:49 am from IP #
hamish05
Member

50W Halogen globes have been responsible for a lot of house fires, often they occur shortly after a renovation has been completed.

Up to 300deg C can be generated in the ceiling space by the globe and transformer, causing fires which are generally reported as "electrical faults".

If you decide to install Halogens, it's advisable to install approved guards on top of the fitting for peace of mind.

After a near incident, I (immediately) changed all my Halogens globes to 13W Hycon lamps (globes)@ approx $18 each. The lamp fits into the same holder as the 50W Halogen, and have very even light spread with similar brightness @ approx 50 deg C. However mine are not suitable for dimming. I think there are some other brands of low Wattage globes that are.

40 times 50(plus)Watts is a lot more energy that 40 times 13Watts!!!!! LED's lots better still.

The halogen fitting that swivels, also allows an enormous amount of heat out of your room, which is extremely wasteful.

Hope this info is helpful.

Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 10:32:01 am from IP #
Lance
Key Master

I always tell people to avoid downlights if at all possible as they compromise your ceiling insulation, present a fire hazard and are just basically unsuitable for general ambient lighting. Downlights were designed for task lighting, not general illumination. This is why you have to have multiple fittings in a room of any reasonable size.

If you must fit downlights, fit ES27 downlight cans, they will allow you to use all sorts of bulbs including incandescent, halogen, CFL and LED. If you won't fit them and really want halogens, then don't fit MR16 (12 volt) halogens, go with GU10 fittings which have bulbs of the same 51mm diameter but run dirctly from 240 volts, so no transformer losses or transformer overheating issues.

Halogens should not be dimmed, they are not designed for it and it not only shortens their life but also makes their already poor efficiency much worse. Dimming a bulb down to half brightness doesn't mean they are using half the power, more likely it's 75% of full brightness, so there is not much to be gained from dimming.

But really, look at it this way. Which would you rather spend the money on? Good quality LED fittings that will save you money over their entire life, give you cutting edge lighting and eliminate the need for maintenance, or would you rather put in cheap halogens and donate the money saved initially to your multi-billion dollar power company who I'm sure will be happy to accept the donation. Because that's what you're doing, giving your hard earned cash to a greedy corporation.

To my mind there's no excuse for fitting halogens nowadays, there are so many energy efficient options out there. There are many low cost LED downlights available like the one mentioned above, and there's better quality units like http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390256008652

My house is almost entirely lit with LEDs, I've never paid much more than $50 for a bulb and most are a lot less than that and I havn't had a failure for years now...

Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:49:28 am from IP #
bundy
Member

Hi Lance, I agree and ideally would like to install LED's today however wether I "give my money away" as you put it to the Power Company or the LED Company either way I will be paying a premium to somoene.

It's a bit like buying the First Blue Ray player that comes to market. I can buy first and be happy I got it first or put up with my Old DVD player for another year or 2 and pay a quarter of the price. Which method is better? Who knows

I know we cant predict where LED's will be in 2 or 3 years. I am hoping they evolve enough that for those like me this decision is a no brainer but that said $60 per unit is a lot of Power to consume and has to come into consideration as does how they perform

Anyway still plenty to consider I guess.

Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 12:29:51 pm from IP #
SteveJ
Member

I guess the light fittings will pretty much stay the same price but the bulbs will come down? My work studio has a small stand alone solar rig so I installed three 12 volt trapeze lighting racks (5 lights per trapeze), into those I fitted 3w LEDs ie 15 watts per rack (45 watts all up for 15 lights). I am pretty happy with it. The bulbs were about $22 each. I had no choice so needed the most efficient lighting available at the time, they work very well for the poser they use.

Steve

Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 12:47:27 pm from IP #
Lance
Key Master

Bulb prices will come down, they have steadily since LED bulbs first started appearing, but electricity prices will only go up, so the financial equation must take this into account. You might take 10 years to pay back the LED bulbs at today's electricity prices, but in a few years those prices could have doubled, so paybacks will be considerably shorter.

Besides, I would rather give my money to a cutting edge company that is actually developing cleaner lighting technologies than to a power company that only wants to sell you more coal-fired electricity. There's an ethical standpoint to the equation as well...

Posted Thursday 17 Feb 2011 @ 11:37:44 pm from IP #
johnmcd
Member

We’ve reduced our daily electricity consumption for lighting down from 3.0 to 0.75 kWhrs using a combination of CFLs & LEDs. With current price of good LEDs, it’s difficult to justify their use in all rooms – so we use CFLs in low use areas & use LEDs in the three high use living areas.

My suggestion would be to use 240V only fittings throughout, no ceiling cut-outs for downlights, CFLs in low use rooms & LEDs in high use areas. You can always upgrade the CFLs to LEDs when it makes better financial sense.

Posted Friday 18 Feb 2011 @ 12:27:38 am from IP #
cool at home
Member

I think Lance and JohnMcD have it...

We installed Cree 3 x 3W 240V LEDs (warm white) in a recent renovation (kitchen/dining), and retrofitted 12 and 240V of the same type into the high use areas of the house (family room and downstairs hallway). Use CFLs in laundry, bathrooms, kids rooms, pantry. Some halogens remain in the formal (relatively unused) lounge and in the upstairs hallway.

We paid about $30 per bulb for these LEDs and the colour and quantity of light output is good... less than halogen but very acceptable. We did put 5 LEDs above the main working bench - where we would have only put 3 halogens - and this has given excellent light for kitchen tasks.

We had already cut a gazzillion holes in our ceiling and I wish we hadn't - we really notice that our very high spec'ed and expensive insulation doesn't work as well as 'on paper' it should. So I think Lance's advice there is good - avoid if at all possible.

Our lights haven't been in long enough to comment on longevity (have anyone's??) but in terms of function, we are pleased with the result. And yes, BIG difference to power bills.

Posted Friday 18 Feb 2011 @ 2:47:43 am from IP #
PV2010
Member

Do it now! For the cost of a couple of bottles wine and a case of beer you can be on the way to reducing our planets carbon footprint. The Philips 7W LED does the job for around $38.00 and works on a lot of transformers. The GU10 version is also dimmable. There are countless other LED's out there that give bang for buck at a price that is similar or less. Ultimately it comes down to how important you think it is to reduce your energy consumption!

Posted Friday 18 Feb 2011 @ 10:04:48 am from IP #
SteveJ
Member

Lance said - "There's an ethical standpoint to the equation as well..."

Good on you Lance, to me that is the most important point. So often it seems that the primary consideration is the $$$$, do people not have ethics anymore???, do they only make changes based on saving money, I bloody hope I am wrong but I get the sense that $ comes ahead of ethics with the majority.

Steve

Posted Friday 18 Feb 2011 @ 10:18:15 am from IP #
canyoner
Member

Johnmcd, well done on the reduction in power usage.

One point though, You may have your usage of CFL & LED the wrong way around.

CFL like all fluoro take time to get up to operating temperature - up to 5 mins. They also have a higher power load on start up, so are best used where they will be on for longer periods. To use them in low or short use area or high switching on/off (toilet, cupboard, etc) is defeating the purpose. It also greatly shortens the life of the lamp.

The light source is a lamp, a bulb is something you plant in the ground.

LEDs are better for these areas in that they are at full brightness from start, have no extra power load. They were originally designed for high switching too.

Lance,
We have found that the GU10 lamps - halogen & CFL are amongst the most inefficient lamps available for their output, life & costs. Though the Metal Halide version (GX10) is being used in may new installations to meet Appendix J (NSW commercial) standards & fits into the same fittings in most cases.
Agree with you on everything else. Cutting holes in ceiling for downlights, defeats the purpose of ceiling insulation, yet may lighting designers insist on using them still.

Posted Monday 21 Feb 2011 @ 3:35:24 am from IP #
Lance
Key Master

Steve, from my experiences, with the majority of the general population, when it comes down to it, $ always prevail, ethics always takes a back seat unfortunately. Is the way of the human race, we are after all only slightly smarter apes...

Posted Monday 21 Feb 2011 @ 4:28:20 am from IP #
peta
Member

Hi Bundy,

I rang the local Fire Station and asked them:
NO to halogen - the amount of house fires and loss of life they have to deal with...well that was enough for me so,
We went compact fluros with a casing set back into the ceiling like halogens, just a little bit bigger, absolutely fabulous over the kitchen bench / sharp knife working area and sink, but horrible in the lounge room although dimmable which is good on a really dark afternoon -like today with a massive storm coming - but horrible otherwise, not moody at all - not sure if you can get that tungsten feel in compact dimmable fluro's.. but it's been a couple of years since we've looked at that.

Posted Monday 21 Feb 2011 @ 6:28:02 am from IP #
Thinkwise
Member

The other option is a surface mounted LED fixture to avoid large holes in your ceiling (driver has to go in the roof),efficiency is little lower but what you lose in power you generally save in the extra insulation benefits.

Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 2:25:00 am from IP #
Thinkwise
Member

There are some surface mounted LED's fixture coming onto the market which may solve the issue of drilling holes in the ceiling, they are usually a bit bigger to cater for heat dissipation.

Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 4:25:10 am from IP #
ghostgum
Member

Some of your surface lights look interesting, but I'll keep using my current fluoros until they fail, which hopefully will be many years away.

Some of my covered ES27 downlights with compact fluoros could be replaced by either the 300x300mm or 1200x150mm panel lights.

What is an approximate price on the 300x300mm surface light?

Who else has LED panel lights that mount on the ceiling surface?

Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 5:24:53 am from IP #
sandystone
Member

Ecolighting .com at Kincumber has some interesting surface mounted led panels.300 x 300 , bright and even.

Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 11:39:10 am from IP #
Thinkwise
Member

I would't pay more than $160 for a 20w 300x300.

Posted Thursday 24 Feb 2011 @ 11:36:55 pm from IP #
Greg
Member

Having read the article in renew 114 and been thinking LED or T5, I decided to do an experiment. I was really keen on sourcing the LED ribbon mentioned but could not find a supplier at a reasonable price so I went the easy route for a few $ more.
1. Standard fluorescent fitting ( had one but they sell for about $30 - $50 for single / double )
2. T8 18W replacement LED ( $68 from ledcentral ). Very professional looking unit. The LEDs are afixed to cylindrical finned aluminum and covered by a clear acrylic. It's all nicely sealed so the LEDs won't get damaged and it's easy to wipe clean of dust. This is sometihing the straight led strip does not provide.

It was a very simple mater to amend the standard fitting , removing the balast, starter etc (by qualified electrician of course cough cough).

The LED replacement tube works best ,I think, without the diffuser that was on the light fitting. When fitted it gave bands of light. Strip lighting to be sure ! The light is quite acceptable as I was after up lighting and or task lighting. The economics are not there as stated earlier in this thread but I'll chalk it up to a self imposed carbon tax .

On the whole I am impressed enough to go this route for further specific lighting and I'll check out other designs and styles to see hoe else they can be used

Posted Sunday 6 Mar 2011 @ 4:29:52 am from IP #
lecky22
Member

Any homebuilder or home renovator who has is financially able to purchase LED lighting should dot even be considering halogen bulbs. Halogen is an inefficient lighting source which is currently being phased out.

Improvements in LED technology have made it an excellent source of lighting for residential and commercial spaces. Yes, GOOD leds initial costs are approximately $100 each, but you will not need to change them for 30 years (perfect for your 20 year house) and your energy bill will be significantly lower, not to mention your greenhouse gas emissions.

Brightgreen's D900 LED downlight is currently the best on the market. It's light output and brightness matches a 50W halogen but it only requires a quarter of the power and will last 15 times longer. This is much better than Phillips 7W led downlight which is mentioned above.

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 3:37:40 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

lecky22
That might be true but, according to info on another thread:
http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/led-downlight-comparison-erroneous-claims

...the Brightgren D900 is a 16W LED downlight. So not "1/5th" of the power of a 50W halogen D/L. That would be 10W, unless my maths is astray.

And at the quoted price of $140, a person could buy 20 15W CFLs from a well-known hardware retailer, thus negating the apparent advantage of a "15 times longer life".

A claim which is not supported anywhere by empirical evidence.

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 4:06:03 am from IP #
Thinkwise
Member

CFL's are not comparable in a down light setting, sure they do a good job in a batten but thats not what is being compared here.

16W is also total draw unlike 50w being only the globe, I have tested some halogens drawing 60w, which still isn't 1/5th but does help it a bit.

And I say all this with Bright green being one of our biggest competitors. Currently we believe ours has slightly more output though.

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 5:04:12 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

That's kinda funny, you know, cause I['ve seen actual instals of the tubular type fittings which can take standard ES or BC bulbs of whatever flavour, and with CFLs in them they work fine.

And you only need 1/4 of the number of lights, compared to hallies.

The point is that LED is still an 'emerging' technology and is not yet anything like cost effective to replace CFLs.

It's the old chicken and egg scenario. Sell more, price comes down. Can't sell more cause price hasn't come down.

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 11:29:50 am from IP #
tullera182
Member

lighting solution for above kitchen benches - I have installed stip LEDs (the type found under the running boards in oonce oonce cars). They come off the one very small transformer. Provide great light for work surfaces and washing up and use about 3W between the 4 of them.

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 6:00:48 pm from IP #
Buzzman
Member

I think the expression you're searching for is "doof doof" cars.

So did you use blue, yellow, red or white???? Or all four?? LOL!!

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 10:53:25 pm from IP #
Thinkwise
Member

Buzzman - Those fixtures are much larger than your standard 90mm down light and would look pretty horrible in a 2550 ceiling. You can also buy 7-10w LED bulbs which would do just as good a job as a 18-24w cfl in that setting for around the $30-$40 mark which is hardly a fortune.

I agree there are down light options for CFL's but their efficiency factor is pretty terrible I have seen some of those fittings in the .5-.6 range (only 50% of light makes it out of the fitting)which if you wanting to achieve similar lux levels then you will need more than twice the power.

Acceptable light levels are different to everyone which is the hardest to compensate for.

It is my opinion that quantity isn't the entire reason LED products are more expensive, as Australia really doesn't make up much of world sales. Once the technology reaches its efficiency limits we will see more of the same models being pumped out and less money being spent on R&D which will hopefully give some pricing benefits.

Most companies don't use old technology in their products so we don't get the sell out sales we would in comparison to TV's for instance.

Prices are definitely coming down in the wholesale market compared to last year.

Posted Monday 7 Mar 2011 @ 11:06:16 pm from IP #
Greg
Member

I checked out the price for a 1m strip (nicely set in Aluminum) from CREE. A mere $1300. AS I mentioned in my previous post - very happy with the $70 I spent on the T8 LED tube.

Posted Tuesday 8 Mar 2011 @ 6:05:11 am from IP #
Thinkwise
Member

Although I agree the LED tube will always provide better light output, strip light isn't realistically going to cost $1300. If you are trying to match the tube I would be using 19w/m strip which should be a similar cost ($60-$80) but mounting options are more flexible.

Cree gear is always very pricey!

Posted Wednesday 9 Mar 2011 @ 12:10:11 am from IP #
Lance
Key Master

Cree light fittings are pricey (at least in Oz, they are a lot cheaper in the US), their LEDs are not for what you get. A few XP-G or XM-L LEDs and a suitable driver and heatsink and you're done, and for under $100 usually, you just have to do a bit of the work yourself and do a bit of looking around for the best prices...

Posted Wednesday 9 Mar 2011 @ 12:52:14 am from IP #

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