Very disappointed in Hydronic heating system!!! Are there any solutions?? Please help!!!!
I have an 1880's home double storey. Last year we decided to build an extension and renovate the house with new electrics and central heating. This project was big and expensive. We borrowed most of the money and with all the research I spent so much time on and getting quotes from at least 5 different heating companies I felt that hydronic was the only way to heat this house comfortably. The only problem was that we had to use LPG gas. Our plumber said that he would get an efficient condensing boiler and hunt heating supplied the heat rating and radiators. The system has approximately 17 radiators some double some triple and a few singles. The condensing boiler is a sime I think 64 kw. I have a thermostat in the new section all windows are double glazed and all areas are insulated. I have operated the system at 16 degrees with 5 hrs at 18 degrees when we are home at night. It is that temperature in the new section where the thermostat is but the rest of the house it is probably only 12 degrees as the thermostat switches off in main section when it reaches 16 or 18 degrees. My LPG gas bill is $460 for only running it 12 days!!!! So far it has cost me $2600 for approx 2 and a bit months. We live in Crookwell were we have very cold winters -8 some nights and snow and top some days of 3 or 5 degrees.
I have spent $27000 on this system that I can't afford to run. I have all these radiators that are going to be a big white elephant!!
Any suggestions?? Heat pumps ?? Wood fire ?? ( we run a wood heater and it is hard work and supply not easy to get for quantity needed) geothermal $60000 + have already looked into it. Solar ??? Probably not enough energy to heat to 60 to 70 degrees.
Can anyone help me??? I am so so disappointed let alone the money I have wasted.
Thanks for reading .
Please help on hydronic heating a disaster !
(40 posts) (20 voices)-
bramstephens
MemberPosted Tuesday 1 Jul 2014 @ 4:01:13 pm from IP # -
Chip
MemberCrikey that all sounds a bit grim. I'm not any sort of expert but a few quick thoughts:
LPG is a very costly energy option. No inbuilt efficiencies can avoid the fact that your house needs a lot of energy to heat it and LPG shouldn't have been suggested as a good option. Natural gas maybe but not LPG at Crookwell.
Double storey homes are more challenging and need more active driving. Best if the two levels can be isolated. Open stairways mean you are always battling convection. Old houses also need a lot more attention to sealing.
Double glazing is good but big glass areas will lose a lot of heat. In living areas and upper levels, closed cell blinds or well fitted drapes would be needed.
The good news is that most of your infrastructure is in so a lot of your expenditure is not wasted. You basically only need to look at an alternative heat source plus fine tuning of thermostat placement and experience in driving the whole house. With fogs and cloudy days at Crookwell, a solar system would need to be very big and have a lot of insulated hot water storage.
I'd be considering a pellet boiler as a replacement. One that will also run on corn or wheat. Very common now in northern US and Canada. Efficient, automated and second grade grain is a relatively cheap fuel for now and in years to come, other types of pellets will become more widely available here.
If your LPG boiler is fairly new, it can probably be easily converted to natural gas or methane and hopefully sold at little loss.
You might also look at an auxiliary solar air heater option. If you have some space near the house then you could easily build a ground or shed mounted system. Presuming your house has a lot of thermal mass, this can be heated during sunny days. Thermal mass that is cold after sunset will suck heat and dollars out of your air for little advantage. The other advantage of a fresh air rather than recirculation solar air heating system is that it partially pressurises your house and therefore reduces leaks.
Good luck.
Posted Tuesday 1 Jul 2014 @ 9:59:10 pm from IP # -
karmacoma
MemberSerious problem. Meantime while the 'experts' here arrive to read the above, would it be possible to attach, or if necessary sketch-draw the circuit diagram?
This will diagramatically show all the components in the system.Have a look at the diagrams in
http://www.duluthenergydesign.com/Content/Documents/GeneralInfo/PresentationMaterials/2013/Day1/hydronics-siegenthaler.pdf
to see what the diagram would look like. You might even find one there a bit similar to yours. A diagram here would be useful for diagnosis.That guy wrote a book from which the powerpoint above is a very brief excerpt. The book:
Siegenthaler, John, 2010. Modern hydronic heating : for residential and light commercial buildings. 3rd ed.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/version/165143900
You can also preview it on Google Books. You'd arrange an inter-library loan with your local library to see the whole book.
Research probably isn't what you want but looks like you'll be forced to become your own expert - the plumber of course wasn't. Footy, the ute, beer ... that's his world, not reading up.Ian
Posted Tuesday 1 Jul 2014 @ 10:26:14 pm from IP # -
Greg
Memberbramstephens, you said "I have a thermostat in the new section all windows are double glazed and all areas are insulated"
Is this just the new section that is insulated or the whole house? What is this new section for? Lounge, bedrooms ?Do you have individual controls on each radiator? Do you have zones or just one radiator circuit ? If so I suggest you try and heat just those zones / rooms you really need. Turn off the radiators where they not essential as it sounds like you are heating (trying to at least) the whole house. Cut it right back to the barest minimum, see what the consumption is like and go from there for the short term.
Throw up some more info and the people here will help.Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 1:17:34 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterLPG is never a cheap heating option, when I started reading the OP I immediately had the thought "this will cost a fortune to run". That seems to be the OP's main issue, the zoning/temp probs can be fixed by adding another thermostat, but the big issue is the fuel cost. When we first moved in here, there was LPG central heating installed but the previous owners had not run it for years and I didn't even consider resurrecting it due to the cost of LPG.
Seems that they need a solution for alternative heat sources that are not going to break the budget, and my first thought is heat pumps, using something such as http://www.skylineenergy.com.au/Radiator_Heater_Domestic_More.php but still a lot of extra up-front expenditure. There's an ATA forum topic on this at http://www.ata.org.au/forums/topic/2275
Another option might be a wood fired boiler, there are some where you load them up and they are automatic, you don't have to keep messing with them, such as the Gasogen boiler (http://www.pivotstove.com.au/catalogue/hydronics/wood-boilers-hydronic/gasogen-wood-boiler ), those guys actually have a number of wood and pellet boiler options.
I think the fastest and cheapest solution for the cold rooms might be to have a decent reverse cycle heat pump fitted, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Daikin make some very efficient units.
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 2:33:15 am from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberTHANKYOU everyone who has given me some alternatives. I will try and investigate. Again it's just another expense which way to go wood fired / gaseous burner or heat exchange. I've been in touch with skyline and they have asked for plans, however radiators might have to be changed. I just wish that some of these companies would come out and look at my house. I just seem to keep experimenting and it keeps costing . Surely there are similar houses eg in Victoria that are a similar design that have heating systems that work but maybe they have access to natural gas. Anyway I really appreciate all your help. Love the comment from karmacoma that is our plumber down to a tee. You must know Crookwell. Nice bloke but doesn't know about the system.
THANKYOU all I will see what happens with my research and keep you posted .Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 3:00:12 am from IP # -
wlb
MemberSounds to me like your best option is a heat pump to replace the LPG boiler. But if you want to explore the wood-fired route, talk to Andrew Larking at Tubulous Aust. They've been doing exactly this sort of thing with wood for 50 years. You'll get an honest assessment from Andrew.
http://www.tubulousaustralia.com.au/Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 3:29:28 am from IP # -
The numbers look just incredible to me.
A 64 kW heater and 17 radiators is really extreme!
Assuming two radiators for the living room, you must have more than 12 rooms including kitchen and bathrooms.I don't see much need to heat bedrooms in Australia. When I was a child I had not heating in my bedroom in Germany. Just leaving the door a bit open gets you warm enough. We had ice on the inside of the windows in the morning, but it was warm in my bed.
Do you really have no individual thermostat valves at the radiators? That is really state of the art.
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 5:39:38 am from IP # -
Joe
MemberI feel you have to look closely at your heat losses as it would appear you are loosing massive amounts of heat.
Also probably need to look at heat recovery air ventilation, so that after you stop all the air gaps and leaks you can have fresh air without loosing so much valuable heat with the old/stale air.
Also old stone houses have massive amounts of embedded moisture in the stone work that will steal massive amounts of heat as the house dries out.
I assume you have been in the roof cavity and made sure that it is insulated, it is also worth going up there when heating and seeing if you have draughts that are allowing your warm air out I.E if the roof space feels warm you are loosing to much heat through the ceilings of gaps.
Hope the above helps .
PS We visited our UK and EU relos last year and they (and all their friends) are fitting automatic solid fuel boilers as the cost of North sea gas and Russian gas means they can't afford to live with gas heating, they are also fitting solar (evacuated tube) boosters to try and get as much help as possible from the sun
regards
JoePosted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 6:04:23 am from IP # -
Morbo
Membersomething does not sound quite right. Managed to heat 100m2 on a boiler the size of the Rinnai2000 we got here for a 20m2 room with rice paper walls. The radiators should have individual Thermostats. And changing them wont make a difference. Do you have excessive pipe runs, uninsulated? Do the radiators have bleeder valves? Are the pipe runs insulated? Whats your water temperatures inlet and return?
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 7:11:45 am from IP # -
nhand42
Memberbramstephens said:
My LPG gas bill is $460 for only running it 12 days!!!!LPG is about 5.5c per MJ vs Natural Gas at 2.5c per MJ. Based on your costings you're pumping in $38 worth of LPG per day. That's 690MJ of energy per day.
Compare with my 210 sqm double-storey home with too much double glazing (105 sqm) and standard insulation (R2 walls, R6 roof). It consumes an average 200MJ of energy per day during winter. More on cloudy days. Less on sunny days.
You're using 3x as much energy which suggests a couple of things you can investigate. (1) reduce air leakage by blocking draughts. (2) improve your insulation esp. in the roof. (2) the Sime boiler might not be working efficiently, have it checked by an expert. (4) you might have heat losses elsewhere (e.g. the hydronic pipes), have an expert check the pipe pressures.
The other important thing to do is to get a second opinion on the hydronic installation. My plumber made an absolute *mess* with my hydronic system. After getting a second opinion I'm convinced he had never installed one before. The thermostat was incorrectly wired so the boiler ran continuously, consuming $25 per day of natural gas. The hot loop was not insulated correctly and was radiating heat outside the house. The circulating pump wasn't correctly wired either so the house was cold despite the high gas consumption. After a tune-up and some remediations by a hydronic professional, I'm now spending $5 per day (200MJ).
Finally you should look at your fuel. LPG is not cheap - twice as expensive as natural gas - and is contributing to your woes. See if you can get a cheaper heat source. Perhaps a heat pump?
Don't get disillusioned. Hydronic systems are great once you get them working properly. Also they are more efficient (and cheaper) than many alternatives. It sounds to me like a faulty installation or maybe you have a gigantic poorly insulated house. Either way it's a fixable problem.
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 10:54:48 am from IP # -
Greg C
MemberGround source heat pump will definitely be your most effective solution. It should be adaptable to the heating radiators you have installed. I know a guy who is building a house in Mittagong so not that far from you and he has tested ground temps and 3m down it is stable at 17-18 degrees years round. Whoever recommended LPG or any gas for heating is living in the past
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 10:57:50 am from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThanks Greg C . I assume ground source is geothermal and there is a company in Mittagong called Jefford Gas & Hot Water. I spoke to him last year and as we are in town he gave me a quote and it was 100m x 3 bores into ground at $100 per metre so $30000 just to do ground floor and another $20000 for upstairs so total = $50000 so right out of my price range that's why I thought $27000 for overall cost with gas LPG was good. Unfortunately it was not to be. I would be interested to know who is doing your friends house in Mittagong and costs. If that's ok. If not I understand. Thanks for your response.
SallyPosted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 12:20:11 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThanks Greg see my previous response
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 12:25:37 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThanks nhand42 , that gives me some hope. I spoke to the plumber today and he assured me that all pipes were insulated. I would like to get an expert out . But I feel a bit awkward as I received quite a number of quotes ranging as high as $45000 and I didn't go with them. One asked me to pay $500 for the quote which I thought was a bit unusual. So I feel hesitant to contact any of probably the experts. As they will be upset that I didn't go with them. Also all areas are insulated well although there are some leaks in floorboards that can be addressed due to pulling them up to get pipes in. Will investigate heat pump but plumber said this afternoon that he is pulling a lot of heat pumps for hot water out due to the fact they aren't that good. I just need an expert that can give me some solar/ heat pump/ fire all in one boiler. Unfortunately they don't exist.
If you know of anyone in my area that has a system or a cost effective hydronic boiler let me know. Thanks for your detailed response it is much appreciated. SallyPosted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 12:40:20 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThanks Joe,
Yes evacuated solar tubes would help and will investigate wood fired boilers. Pivot do a gaseous one and wise living but their one is straight wood. I appreciate your reply and yes we are insulated well especially in the new extension. SallyPosted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 12:43:15 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThanks yes all is insulated. I appreciate your reply. Sally
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 12:44:50 pm from IP # -
karmacoma
MemberTry and get hold of that book I referenced earlier today (above), as it is very practically oriented toward remediating systems that have been poorly installed, as well as covering many design variants and heat sources. The guy has a hydronics engineer and installer for 40 years, and seems to have seen it all.
I am in agreement with nhand42, I too think you will get on top of the problem.
As to my comment re the plumber, well, I'll just say that I have spent a lot of time with tradies. Chuckled that I got it right!
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 12:46:24 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThanks for your reply sun2steam yes we have 11 rooms but we have 2 big hallways upstairs and downstairs as it is an 1880's Victorian house. I know my 2 girls might have to toughen up . However ice on the windows might be a little extreme as my eldest child suffers severe asthma so I'm trying to keep her bedroom warm. I do appreciate your comments and the fact that you took the time to reply. THANKYOU Sally
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 12:49:58 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThanks wlb for your response I will check those tubulous aust boilers out and see what coatings they do and how much wood they use. ThanksSally
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 12:52:22 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberTHANKYOU all for your advice. Yes maybe revers cycle might work upstairs we did try that before downstairs and it wasn't very effective due to warm air rising to roof and cold when you sat down but it is an option. Also the pivot heaters look good and plumber can fit those I think. Re: zoning we can't put a thermostat upstairs not sure why but it's something to do with how it was plumbed with the pipes. Anyway thanks for your support. If you know of any good hydronic experts close by let me know. Thanks sally
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 1:05:06 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThanks karmacoma I will look at the book . Hopefully all will work out in time. I will just have to save a bit more money before any adjustments can be made. Thanks sally
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 1:22:22 pm from IP # -
Greg
MemberWith all the suggestions above can I suggest a list with priorities.
Eg where is the heat going? Grab an IR thermometer and measure and record everything, temps at boiler in and out, radiator temps, room temps.
Prioritise the heating. Warm bedroom for daughter ok, cool / cold corridor / stairwell ok. Unless the plumbing is a continuous circuit through the radiators you should be able to turn off the low priority ones. Save $ and heat now so you can use it to change heat source if necessary and keep the heat where it's necessary.Check the radiators. Are they uniformly hot all over? When commissioning air should have been bleed from them. You should have a key that will allow you to bleed them yourself if there is trapped air. Get a plastic milk container and cut the side out. Place it under the bleed valve, open it with the key to remove air. If there is trapped air the radiators will not be heating up.
Find where the heat is going otherwise it will still be expensive to run.
Best of luck
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 11:10:24 pm from IP # -
pulpo
MemberIts always the greatest issue with rural houses, heat source.
4 alternatives(very rough pricing)
Wood/pellets boiler ($10,000 supplied only)
Air Heat Pump (Sanden $14,000 supplied can be run some on solar)
LPG boiler ($3,500 condensing)
Ground source heat pump ($25,000 supplied and installed run on some solar)You would need to do a heat load calculation for your house to size the heat source.
I never advise anyone to consider LPG unless money is no object.
I also advise anyone considering hydronic heating for older homes, do all renovations first.
Then insulate ceiling, walls and under floor, as much as you can, especially in Crookwell.
Place insulated shades on all windows.
The size of your boiler seems excessive, standard Sime 33kw.
Is the boiler located internally, garage etc?
Do you have thermostatic heads on any radiator:
On the website http://www.solarsatisfaction.com.au you can download the spreadsheet and do a heat load calculation.
As you can see an LPG gas boiler is cheap compared to the other options but a fortune to run.
Good luck with a solution.
Pulpo
Posted Wednesday 2 Jul 2014 @ 11:43:24 pm from IP # -
bramstephens
MemberThankyou Pulpo Yes LPG is expensive but out of all the quotes I got most suggested LPG as the main source of energy. Not many had positive things to say about heat pumps or solar as they felt these systems would not be effective enough. Overall I just wish that I could actually find an expert in hydronics who would give me an honest answer and look at my house and system. Every comment on this forum has been fantastic but at the end of the day I still have to rely on someone coming to look and giving me an alternative that will work. There are no thermostatic heads on radiators. Just standard delonghi radiators. Thanks for your help you seem to know about hydronics. Sally
Posted Thursday 3 Jul 2014 @ 1:17:57 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberYears ago I had a quote for heating systems in an area that had no town gas.
The cheapest to install was the LPG Gas system, but the running costs killed it: over $6000 per year to run!
I suggest getting an accurate cost estimate of the running costs before you sign up to any heating system based on LPG. Remember that gas prices are on the up as our gas suppliers have sold all of their production offshore. I think Sydney is in for about 18% increase and other areas will follow suit.
If a supplier is suggesting that heatpump will not be effective enough, I would be asking for more details of the reasons why, and I would be searching out a competitive quote from a heatpump hydronic supplier. If a heatpump is not effective, it means it has not been specified correctly, and not that all heatpumps are not effective. I suspect they don't have good comparative data and may never have been involved in a heatpump hydronic heating installation. I haven't either, but I can say that we have a very effective heatpump hot water service and the running costs are really low. A properly specified heatpump will work just as well as a properly specified gas system but the running costs will be a lot less for the heatpump.
I agree that a stand alone solar hydronic system may have issues. You need a lot of tubes to collect enough hot water to heat the house, and on a dark, cold day you might not collect much heat at all. That said, a solar boosted heatpump system should perform well as would a solar PV powered heatpump - the advantage is the solar can be added later.
Posted Thursday 3 Jul 2014 @ 7:30:48 am from IP # -
Joe
MemberA heat Pump will work till the ambient temp falls below 3C then they tend to become expensive, but most days would have many hours above that.
Solar evacuated tubes work in very low temperatures and are a viable source of added heat to reduce running costs, the circulating pump will cut in when ever there is a positive temperature differential and cut out again when it disappears.Evacuated tubes and a solar cell to run a 12v circulation pump would be the ideal then only up for the purchase and installation costs it will run it's self
I feel you should contact the Boiler manufacturer or agent (definitely NOT the plumber) and see if they have a service man who could look at your installation and suggest any faults or improvements (and hopefully a heating specialist who could advise on the fix).
Regards
JoePosted Friday 4 Jul 2014 @ 9:22:14 am from IP # -
Bushwalker
MemberJoe said:
A heat Pump will work till the ambient temp falls below 3C then they tend to become expensive, but most days would have many hours above that.http://www.mitsubishielectric.com.au/MFZ-FB-VAH_Hyper-Heating_Inverter.html
Breakthrough air conditioning heating performance
Mitsubishi Electric introduces a breakthrough in air conditioning heating performance with the introduction of a hyper-heating series. Unlike conventional air conditioning systems, the HYPER-HEATING Series do not loose heating capacity when it is cold outside.
A Mitsubishi Electric hyper-heating Heat Pump will deliver the same amount of heat whether operating at 7°C or –15°C.
The Mitsubishi Electric hyper-heating Heat Pump Range is fitted with an advanced compressor that allows superior heating performance, even in sub zero temperatures. The key to its superior performance is the Mitsubishi Electric “Heat Caulking” compressor technology that allows larger amounts of refrigerant to be moved around the system using less energy.
Cold climate heatpumps are not unique or new. They just need to pump more refrigerant to deliver the heat. A cold climate air to water unit in Australia may not be down at your local hardware but they are around.
http://www.skylineenergy.com.au/Radiator_Heater_Domestic_More.php
Posted Friday 4 Jul 2014 @ 1:54:46 pm from IP # -
Midnight Man
MemberI'm also going to chime in here to say that I thought the Sanden CO2 heat pumps also operated at quite low temperatures without a loss of performance (CoP)... looked this up just now as it had me curious:
"10. At what temperatures will the Sanden "Eco®" Hot Water Heat Pump System operate effectively?
The Sanden HWHP will operate effectively between minus 10 and plus 43 degrees C. It is fitted with in built freeze protection, making it suitable for all climates."
Taken from: https://www.sanden-hot-water.com.au/faq#10
Posted Friday 4 Jul 2014 @ 2:35:32 pm from IP # -
Greg C
Memberbramstephens said:
Thanks Greg C . I assume ground source is geothermal and there is a company in Mittagong called Jefford Gas & Hot Water. I spoke to him last year and as we are in town he gave me a quote and it was 100m x 3 bores into ground at $100 per metre so $30000 just to do ground floor and another $20000 for upstairs so total = $50000 so right out of my price range that's why I thought $27000 for overall cost with gas LPG was good.Hi Sally
It is not geothermal energy as I think of it. It is basically reverse cycle air conditioning, but the outdoor evaporator/condenser is replaced by a network of pipes buried 3-5 metres underground. Here the temp is about 17 degrees so in winter instead of trying to pump heat into the house from from air at less than 5 degrees it can source heat at 17. In summer just as good, instead of trying to dump heat into 40 degree air it dumps it into 17 degree soil. The efficiency of the system is much higher as a result. You could easily couple this system so in the winter mode it dumps the heat to water storage which gets pumped around to your radiators to use some of your existing infrastructure. A switch over to an air evaporator would be needed for summer I would think.
As others have said you can run this off solar to further reduce costs and the houses carbon footprint
Posted Friday 4 Jul 2014 @ 9:44:24 pm from IP #
