How warm is too warm? « Alternative Technology Assn Forums

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How warm is too warm?

(52 posts) (12 voices)

Started 11 years ago by Bearamundi
Latest reply from franks

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solar_star
Member

I'm in a 90 year old Melbourne weatherboard without air conditioning. I installed ceiling fans in the living areas and main bedrooms before christmas and they are fantastic. Even yesterday (38 deg) we didn't use them until the afternoon yet my neighbours put their air conditioner on at 7.30am and it was still on after dark ... even though the temperature outside was very pleasant.

I've come to the conclusion that people are actually SCARED that they might be warm inside the house and aren't prepared to actually do a reality check. "Am I really feeling uncomfortable?" "Is it cooler outside than in ... should I open up the doors and windows?"

By my maths next door could easily be spending as much as $20 a day in cooling with two air conditioners going full blast for 15 hours a day ( which by the way they do as soon as the weather forecast is for +20 deg C ). This would soon pay for external shading of their windows and some ceiling fans and they would probably find themselves better tempered as a result - I don't know about you folks but the noise of air conditioning is torture. When the air conditioning at work switches off at the end of the day the silence is absolute bliss.

Posted Sunday 30 Jan 2011 @ 8:31:06 pm from IP #
termite
Member

I've read that people only have a 1-2 degree tolerance of temperature variation in an air-conditioned environment, but a 7-8 degree tolerance of temperature variation in an open-air environment. I think it may have something to do with breezes and airflow in general.

What I particularly don't like about air conditioning is the recirculation and resultant stuffiness. The noise, expense and wasted fuel are also significant considerations, but the feeling that the air has been 'overused' is cloying.

solar_star - is your neighbour also in a weatherboard - or an uninsulated high-mass-exterior house? A low-mass house is definitely more comfortable in hot weather. Fans work well, though I have problems with their current design conventions, in respect of lighting (and noise production for some).

Posted Sunday 30 Jan 2011 @ 9:53:28 pm from IP #
Bearamundi
Member

Today it got to 38 outside and 27 inside late arvo; no air-con no problemo.
I agree totally with termite and SS.
Part of the fear with heat is that in acknowledging it you concurrently experience how sick your mind and life really are. It is so confronting that you'll do anything to reduce the pain of it. Whack the air-con on and you have a kind of temporary support then, like alcohol. Problem is, your problems aren't really dealt with, you don't change one little bit and air-con generates its own side effects.
Just look at how preoccupied and haunted so many people appear to be while driving in their late model cars with air-con (I use my car air-con because I think it can get unbearably hot in a car). That withstanding, it is the same kind of thing, pinning our woes on temperature instead of seeing two different things.
I'm having a floydian moment!!"I have become comfortably numb"

Posted Monday 31 Jan 2011 @ 7:30:48 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

rockabye

Ever watched a grown man trying to extract foot from mouth - it ain't pretty! LOL!!

I have done some work for the MS Society and a friend's Dad is/was the Chairman, so have had some exposure to MS - have some understanding of your problem/issues.

Just a thought, and I'm sure you already know, but in NSW we have a special govt-funded extra rebate for people who have "medically proven body temperature maintenance issues" and the MS Society was one of the groups that lobbied for this.

If you're not in NSW, maybe ask around....???? Do a bit of lobbying???

Posted Monday 31 Jan 2011 @ 9:34:39 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

In Qld after a very active campaign by the MS Society we now have a medical cooling & heating rebate of $150pa for anyone who has a medical need for airconditioning etc.

http://www.msqld.org/electricityrebate

Posted Monday 31 Jan 2011 @ 9:48:19 am from IP #
Buzzman
Member

Cool, it's about the same in NSW.

But that's only around 40c per day, or about 1 hr of A/C usage.

I audited a house last week where the guy had emphysema and one of those positive pressure airflow machines. I metered it and it was using 4.8kW/day (on 24/7) so costing him $1.06/day or $96.60/qtr.

It's great we have these rebates but they are, as I'm sure you're only too well aware, just a drop in the bucket for many.

Posted Monday 31 Jan 2011 @ 10:03:15 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

Yes a lot of people with disabilities have high energy requirements. With rising power prices the subsidy will only have small impact on their bills. The WA scheme is the most generous at $502. This is where we need national schemes not state based ones.

"Heat intolerance is a major issue for people with MS. One consequence is that nationally on average people with MS run their air conditioners approximately 15 times more than average households. This translates to spending approximately 10 times more running their air conditioners than average households. Particularly for those on low incomes this is a serious problem and can for example cost between $400-650 across NSW and VIC (and between $300-400 in ACT, and up to $1000 in QLD)."

Note that there is already an excellent scheme in WA called the ‘Thermoregulatory Dysfunction Subsidy Support Scheme’.

http://www.dtf.wa.gov.au/cms/content.aspx?id=1691

I see Australian of the Year. Simon McKeon, also has MS.

Posted Monday 31 Jan 2011 @ 6:50:31 pm from IP #
dymonite69
Member

""Heat intolerance is a major issue for people with MS."

The elderly and those with any number of medical conditions are vulnerable to heat-related injuries.

The ability to thermoregulate requires the ability for the body to circulate blood toward the skin to dump excess heat and also to generate perspiration.

A number of circulatory conditions and medications can impede this from occurring.

The morbidity and mortality for heat stroke in the elderly far exceeds that seen in the young athlete. Combined with the fact that they often can't afford to run air conditioners means that a number each year die from this condition.

Heat stroke is not a trivial problem. In the 2003 European heat wave, 40000 people died - and temperatures didn't even approach those that we regularly see in Australia.

Posted Tuesday 1 Feb 2011 @ 9:06:42 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

'The ability to thermoregulate requires the ability for the body to circulate blood toward the skin to dump excess heat and also to generate perspiration.

A number of circulatory conditions and medications can impede this from occurring.'

MS is a disease that affects the central nervous system and is the most common cause of disability in young adults. Circulation is not generally an issue as the temperature rise causes dysfunction of messages to the brain. However the effect is quite severe in many cases causing extreme fatigue, burning sensations etc, Cool down and the effects rabidly abate. Certainly in my case they do and a cool shower is often very effective as well.

"Heat intolerance in MS shows up as a "pseudoexacerbation" -- the experience of having symptoms appear or worsen due to heat exposure."

http://ms.about.com/od/signssymptoms/a/heat_intoleranc.htm

Posted Tuesday 1 Feb 2011 @ 9:31:35 am from IP #
dymonite69
Member

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhthoff's_phenomenon

Posted Tuesday 1 Feb 2011 @ 10:18:04 am from IP #
Bearamundi
Member

I think maybe the point I am getting to , as these things are emergent, is that all this technology, however alternative, has not really solved the problem of suffering. And that it is suffering (loneliness, despair, torment, depression, emptiness, anxiety etc) that compound the problem of heat. All these technological advances are making the problems worse, society as a whole can seem to be getting crueller in many respects. There comes a point when you just have to start to accept the heat. As this happens you start to realise it is not so bad as you discover living in the process.
Tonight all my efforts of heat regulation have been overpowered and internal temp is 34. But again, if you just feel it, it ceases to be a huge problem. However that said the humidity is 31% (but way higher outside) due to that stack effect.
Riding my bicycle home tonight from work (I commute 25km a day) was very hot. You just slow down in your mind, pace youself behind your mate, and enjoy it. Sweat pouring out, all those toxins going with it. But these people driving by in aircon could be relaxed and enjoying it but no, they are generally sad-looking, pre-occupied, talking to themselves, arguing etc. I'll take the heat anyday!!

Posted Tuesday 1 Feb 2011 @ 10:34:23 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

Technology is not always making problems worse. Your bicycle and the smooth pavement you are riding on are examples. My electric bicycle allows me to ride where as without the electric motor I have some difficulty. Ditto for the smooth road.

Did you allow for the cost of the paved road in your energy saving bicycle? What about street lighting, pedestrian crossings, guttering and stormwater drains? Any of that 'technology' you think we should dispense with? There is a price for everything.

The problem is the misuse and overuse of technology when simple 'no or low' technology solutions are adequate. The bicycle is a good example. Ceiling fans another. Keeping cool in most cases is achievable with far less energy than most people actually use. I gave the example of setting the aircon to 28deg because that is one example. I find young healthy adults the worst when it comes to aircon settings. They like it at 20deg which increases power consumption enormously.

Posted Tuesday 1 Feb 2011 @ 6:56:49 pm from IP #
Bearamundi
Member

Quite right rockabye, technology is a great thing if you can appreciate it, as you seem to do. I'm definitely not trying to knock you, and I'll have to ask you about your bike at some stage because I want one too.
I just think we as a society are getting too pre-occupied with comfort, and the next generation, as you point out, has already picked this up from us and is thinking wrongfully as well.
More important than comfort is self-reliance, which you possess in spades I would hazard to guess.
All these comforts should make for happiness but they patently don't if you look around and can see through the lies you are told.
Whereas, if you just suffer the heat after taking practical steps to mitigate it,and live with it you discover life again. You are a richer person for it ironically.

Posted Tuesday 1 Feb 2011 @ 7:38:21 pm from IP #
Bearamundi
Member

After successively hot days I'm thinking that somewhere around Rockabye's 28 might be getting too warm. At work today I felt physically drained for a Friday. After I cycled home in tremendous heat I felt just plain bushed and robbed of energy.
I've had a good quality new window air-con stowed in the garage for 6 years now and tonight I put it in the living room window. An hour later the temp (cooling the kids huge room as well) had dropped a degree to 29.6 and the humidity was down 6% to 52. I'm typing this in the spare room which i've closed off from the living room. It is the humidity I am feeling that is the most unpleasant aspect of this warmer room. Air-con is definitely a welcome reprieve.
Powerwise we use only 3.64KWh's a day on average and that is despite a huge $30,000 stereo system (I'm a big fan of music) which admittedly doesn't get used much with the kids around nowadays. Point is we are not energy 'weight-weinies'. In winter I tape plastic over the windows we don't use alot so the fireplace can run on low. Temp rarely drops below 20 degrees.
I think I'll make two internal frames that fit in to the windows in air-conned room with two layers of plastic and weather-stripping around the outside. These can be readily removed at night when outside air temp falls.

Posted Friday 4 Feb 2011 @ 11:54:42 am from IP #
rockabye
Member

Aircons in the garage are of little value as you've discovered. And a $30K stereo, now that got my attention. My $10 ears probably wouldn't appreciate it though.

Posted Friday 4 Feb 2011 @ 6:05:08 pm from IP #
Bearamundi
Member

Rockabye, ended up leaving air-con on overnight and house cooled to 26 with humidity at 48%. Wife looks like she's had a good sleep (due in 2 months) but I kind of feel a bit bombed out with a sore throat. There is always a potential downer to a solution ain't there?
Have to take the boy to soccer this morning and peering out from behind curtains to a day already 32....might have to sprint to car, whack that air-con on full noise....lol
Yeah, I like music I guess...it's all in the bass line which your ears should pick up fine. Nice, really tight bass or bass frequencies, huge slam and attack, but with the right amount of air/space around the instruments....can I just stay home please, I need a bit of Dire Straits "The Gallery" or Bob Dylan "Empire Burlesque"?

Posted Friday 4 Feb 2011 @ 9:52:24 pm from IP #
dymonite69
Member

"The problem is the misuse and overuse of technology when simple 'no or low' technology solutions are adequate. The bicycle is a good example. "

Modern urban sprawl greatly increases our energy consumption requiring technological innovations to address. Sometimes societal expectations place huge demands on infrastructure and resources.

Posted Friday 4 Feb 2011 @ 10:01:39 pm from IP #
cool at home
Member

Humidity makes a huge difference to comfort levels, and a lot of air conditioners have a 'de-humidify' setting that can really make a difference and is far cheaper to operate than the full on cooling option. 28C, low humidity and fans should make you pretty comfortable.

Night purging has been so difficult in Sydney this week (night temperatures are pretty high) that as the week has gone on even the most ardent anti-aircon folk have started gazing longingly at air con ads.... I've certainly taken to haunting shopping centres over the past 2 days. But cool weather is only one more day away! Unfortunately I have 13 people coming for dinner at 6pm...

Posted Friday 4 Feb 2011 @ 11:53:10 pm from IP #
Bearamundi
Member

I know just the antidote CAH -get plastered....lol
We are North of you at Newcastle and I agree with you, this week has been too much. In the living room it is exactly as you say 27.6 and 43% humidity with fans. Very, very comfortable. Just pull the unit out of the window when winter comes round. And it is really a de-humidifier at 28 too.
For my other comments on psychological aspects, which are poorly presented I know, check out Vernon Howard on youtube if you have had enough of suffering, which is basically unconsciously making yourself the centre of everything.
An hour inland rear Dungog is a crystal clear river running over smooth cool river stones, plenty of shade....lets GO!!
I agree as well 69, if you miss the boat with waking up to temp you get into one of these homes that is archetectually (spelling?) designed with the assumption of air-con. Out in the burbs in one of those expensive dinosaurs, you're screwed...

Posted Saturday 5 Feb 2011 @ 1:51:38 am from IP #
Catopsilia
Member

Too hot to sleep?

Sometimes a bedroom can remain too hot overnight to allow sleeping, even without a sheet on the bed. A fan must be kept running.
My fifteen-year records show that I needed a bedroom fan running through nineteen nights in that time. in that room nineteen nights had overnight minima of 28 degrees or more. In general these were the same nights, but not exactly. My record indoor overnight minimum was 30.1 degrees on 7/1/04.
Nights that call for a bedroom fan come very irregularly. The summer of '03-'04 had seven, and the summer of '05-'06 had six. More than half the summers had none at all, including this summer (so far) and the two before it.

Hot years may not have hot summers, and hot summers may not have hot nights.

Posted Tuesday 21 Jan 2014 @ 8:37:24 am from IP #
Catopsilia
Member

I attached my post to the most relevant thread on Google search. I see that this discussion was active at the time of most recent extreme overnight temperature in NSW: early February 2011. At my place I needed a fan for sleeping on 28/1/11 (bedroom minimum 27.8), 5/2/11 (28.6) and 6/2/11 (29.4).

Posted Tuesday 21 Jan 2014 @ 8:53:27 am from IP #
franks
Member

We set our aircon to 27c in cooling mode, use aircon to control humidity, keep in temp humidity comfort zone.

Posted Tuesday 21 Jan 2014 @ 10:57:21 am from IP #

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