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Double glazed windows in a renovated house

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Started 7 years ago by benball
Latest reply from Lyndon

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benball
Member

Doing a small Reno at my house, and shopping around for new windows (qty 8), specifically looking at timber double glazed windows for both their acoustic and thermal efficiency. (The house has been fitted with sub floor, wall and ceiling insulation and is pretty thermally efficient).

The house is an old double brick cal bungalow and as a consequence the only real requirement in terms of the windows is that they are timber. A bit of pain in terms of painting but I’m not going to go down the aluminium or PVC path.

Howevr I guess like most people, I hate noise, and unfortunately we live on a busy street and the two don't mix!

I am steering away from double hung (which most of the house has) because my experience is they don't seal as well as casement or awning windows and as a consequence sound can penetrate through the gaps.

So my requirement is the windows need to be timber, double glazed with good acoustic and thermal efficiency.

Can anyone recommend a manufacturer and is there anything I need to look out for specifically?

Also can anyone recommend a combination of glass for acoustic efficiency?

Posted Tuesday 1 Apr 2014 @ 10:48:18 pm from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

I'd suggest tilt/turn euro style windows. The reason being that they have very effective seals and closure systems, and the frames are rebated to accept the complex profile of the window, eg:

It's pointless on many levels to install double glazing if the window does not shut tight and even with decent, effective and reliable seals all around the aperture. I agree with your scepticism regarding double hung.

AFAIK I think the recommendation for minimising noise transmission is to use varying thickness glass in the double glazing capsule.

BW

Posted Tuesday 1 Apr 2014 @ 11:00:47 pm from IP #
benball
Member

I totally agree with your comments, I will ask the window manufacturers if they do tilt/turn windows. I take it this is different from casement windows?

Would an 8.5 vlam hush and 4mm float be an ideal combination?

Posted Tuesday 1 Apr 2014 @ 11:28:34 pm from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

benball said:
I take it this is different from casement windows?

Would an 8.5 vlam hush and 4mm float be an ideal combination?

Similar to casement, except they open into the room (flyscreen is outside) and you get to tilt the top of the window into the room:

I cannot comment on the glass for sound reduction, but I'd guess that combo would kill it dead. Best to talk with a window expert, where is Miglass when you need him?

I'm sure you can find Tilt/Turn windows in Melbourne. We have one at home from Paarhammer in Vic, the rest came from Germany. Just make sure the quality of construction and seals surprise you and you're on the right track.

Posted Wednesday 2 Apr 2014 @ 8:56:02 pm from IP #
johnmath
Member

+1 on tilt & turn. They are almost standard across Europe these days. Excellent thermal and acoustic performance (if of the standard I am familiar with in Europe). I would look for European manufactured ones, unless you can find ones made in Australia on European equipment to a European design by a European immigrant living in Australia.

Posted Thursday 3 Apr 2014 @ 1:37:18 am from IP #
gazmo88
Member

We recently checked out these guys in Western Sydney:
http://www.ecolinewindows.com.au
They import European extrusions and manufacture using their own CNC machines supposedly using european programmes . The factory was pretty huge.
They also manufacture their own IGUs (some of which were very large) on a very large and expensive machine.
They do a number of styles including tilt and turn and also lift and slide doors.
In fact there seemed to be more styles in their showroom than on their website.
The quality looked pretty good on the samples in their small showroom, but at this stage we have no idea of costs as the "salesman" was not about when we visited.
We may investigate them further when we get nearer window time.

Cheers

Posted Thursday 3 Apr 2014 @ 9:07:16 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

The other feature of Tilt/Turn I didn't mention was the closing/locking system.

When you turn that handle, a set of rods and levers clamp the window into the frame. On our windows there are three clamping locks on each window, one on the top and bottom rails and one next to the handle. Warped windows are not an option.

When closed, pressing the window into the frame all around the perimeter shown zero movement. The seals are all pressed home and there is no discernible leak, even in high winds of which we see plenty.

Paarhammer has this system, as do our German windows. It's generic in EU, there is probably a din standard for it.

BW

Posted Thursday 3 Apr 2014 @ 11:11:42 am from IP #
Miglas Windows
Member

Hi Benball,

Acoustic glazing will certainly make an improvement over standard but as many other have suggested the frame-material and method of sealing is extremely important in achieving a good acoustic seal. A good seal is usually achieving through dual gaskets and tapered multi-point locking system that ensure good compression along the entire perimeter of the gasket. A good way to compare different window systems sealing is to compare the Air Infiltration Rating (AI) on WERS.

In regards to different frame materials have you considered a composite system? (e.g. Aluminium-Clad Timber) Composite windows provides the thermal efficiency, and interior décor of a timber window, but as no timber is exposed externally it does not require continual painting. At Miglas we manufacture a composite system.

For your reference some "GLASS ONLY" STC figures below:

1. 4/14argon /4 - STC 31 (baseline)
2. 8.5Hush/10argon/4 - STC 37
3. 6.76/12argon/6.76 - STC 38
4. 10.5Hush/8argon/4 - STC 39
5. 10.5Hush/6argon/6.5Hush - STC 40
6. 12.5Hush/6argon /6 - STC 41

Remembering that *roughly* :
Changes in STC Rating Changes in Apparent Loudness
+/- 1 STC points - Almost imperceptible
+/- 3 STC points - Just perceptible
+/- 5 STC points - Clearly noticeable
+/- 10 STC points - Twice (or half) as loud

Thanks,
Kurt Miglas

Posted Friday 4 Apr 2014 @ 6:15:07 am from IP #
benball
Member

Thanks for the replies. I'm having trouble finding places that make the tilt and turn type windows.

Thanks Kurt on the information regarding the glass, that is really helpful.

Posted Monday 7 Apr 2014 @ 3:31:48 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

benball said:
Thanks for the replies. I'm having trouble finding places that make the tilt and turn type windows.

Thanks Kurt on the information regarding the glass, that is really helpful.

Here you go:

http://www.paarhammer.com.au/tiltAndTurn.html

http://eurotechwindows.net.au/products/tilt-turn (These are UPVC, not timber)

I'm sure there are many more UPVC suppliers, but I haven't found any other timber Tilt/Turn manufacturers in Vic yet. Most UPVC seems to come from China. I think I mentioned we imported our timber windows from Germany through and Australian agent...

BW

Posted Monday 7 Apr 2014 @ 4:04:42 am from IP #
Morbo
Member

the tilt and turn is around at least 50 years, and similar locking mechanisms as well.
Well, if someone wants to get in, they will. And if its just pulling some boards/FC sheet off and walk through the wall.

woohoo
http://www.tiltco.net/otheroptions/multipleoptionstiltco.html#draftfreeanchor

since 1930s

Posted Monday 7 Apr 2014 @ 11:12:35 am from IP #
MoreBikesPlease
Member

Another good timber tilt&turn manufacturer in Vic is Binq.

Posted Monday 7 Apr 2014 @ 8:22:36 pm from IP #
Lyndon
Member

All

Just wanted to convey our positive experience with ecostar. We had the entire 63 brick veneer hardwood framed single story done in melbourne, all doors and windows UPVC, with casement windows, outward opening, hinged at top. These guys were great, they controlled the entire supply chain. No subbies for the install, which is very important as older places aren't always square and true and it takes skill and experience to take a precisely engineered window fit into an older out of plumb house. Their installers were brought out from the uk.

We interviewed five providers and whilst these guys aren't cheap, the fit and finish was very good. Everything was controlled by them, even sealing the brick cavities around the window to create a thermal seal. I have checked this with a non contact thermometer. Spot on.

The white UPVC suited the house and fitted the original style of the suburb. Cream brick white timber framed windows.

Re tilt and turn vs casement. Whilst tilt and turn are great pieces of engineering, they are popular in Europe partly because you can clean them whilst standing in the house. Also, I would respectfully suggest thinking about how much clearance you will need inside the room to allow you to actually use the tilt and turn function. A number of providers supply tilt and turn because their customers ask for them, but I wonder how often this functionality is actually used and whether the resulting functionality lives up to expectations.

Posted Saturday 31 May 2014 @ 9:30:04 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

Lyndon said:

Re tilt and turn vs casement. Whilst tilt and turn are great pieces of engineering, they are popular in Europe partly because you can clean them whilst standing in the house. Also, I would respectfully suggest thinking about how much clearance you will need inside the room to allow you to actually use the tilt and turn function. A number of providers supply tilt and turn because their customers ask for them, but I wonder how often this functionality is actually used and whether the resulting functionality lives up to expectations.

Good to hear you are happy with your new windows!

Regarding Tilt and turn, we had our first installed in March 2007. Couldn't be happier with it and the windows that followed. We actually have our final consignment of windows and doors en route from the EU at the moment, the container ship just docked in Singapore so only a few weeks to go.

A wide tilt and turn opens wide into the room, yes. If that is a problem you can split the window into two by adding a stile. The advantage is that if you have a 1m2 window, when you open it you have a 1m2 aperture in your wall - not something you can do with an awning or sash window. The ability to clean the upstairs windows without a ladder outside is a bonus. In our case, we had already seen the T&T functionality as well as the superior sealing and fit and finish on a holiday in Europe, so we knew what we wanted and the windows definitely live up to expectations.

I suspect customers ask for Tilt and Turn from providers for the same reasons: they know what they want.

Posted Saturday 31 May 2014 @ 10:40:03 pm from IP #
cremorne121
Member

Hi Bushwalker, can you please remind me, what is the brand of European windows you are importing, and the Australian agent? What was the advantage compared with purchasing Paarhammer?

Posted Sunday 1 Jun 2014 @ 5:18:09 am from IP #
wlb
Member

Lyndon said:
Re tilt and turn vs casement. Whilst tilt and turn are great pieces of engineering, they are popular in Europe partly because you can clean them whilst standing in the house. Also, I would respectfully suggest thinking about how much clearance you will need inside the room to allow you to actually use the tilt and turn function. A number of providers supply tilt and turn because their customers ask for them, but I wonder how often this functionality is actually used and whether the resulting functionality lives up to expectations.

I tend to agree. Tilt and turn are far superior to casement windows when it comes to ventilation, but they're not really designed for environments where fly screens are required. It would be really nice to have one of those modern homes where you open up one side of your living area to the great outdoors, but if we did that here we'd have the house full of flies, blowflies, mosquitoes, moths ... and the occasional bird.

We're in the process of designing an extension and a revamp of the existing part of the house. I will be opting for double-glazed fixed windows. No opening windows with the need for screens. All ventilation will be via separate insect and dust screened vents. I will be separating the function of ventilation from those of light and views.

Posted Sunday 1 Jun 2014 @ 11:21:57 am from IP #
wlb
Member

wlb said:
I tend to agree. Tilt and turn are far superior to awning windows when it comes to ventilation, but I don't know that they are much better than casement. But they're not really designed for environments where fly screens are required. It would be really nice to have one of those modern homes where you open up one side of your living area to the great outdoors, but if we did that here we'd have the house full of flies, blowflies, mosquitoes, moths ... and the occasional bird.

We're in the process of designing an extension and a revamp of the existing part of the house. I will be opting for double-glazed fixed windows. No opening windows with the need for screens. All ventilation will be via separate insect and dust screened vents. I will be separating the function of ventilation from those of light and views.

Posted Sunday 1 Jun 2014 @ 11:23:16 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

cremorne121 said:
Hi Bushwalker, can you please remind me, what is the brand of European windows you are importing, and the Australian agent? What was the advantage compared with purchasing Paarhammer?

Hi Cremorne,

The brand we have been buying is supplied by a local SA firm who organises the production, shipping and installation: http://www.sbresources.com.au/sustainablebuildingresources%208-1-09_files/Page528.htm

Compared to Paarhammer (we have a Paarhammer window, it was our first Tilt and Turn Window), the quality is a little better and the delivery was faster. Also the price from Germany was better. We have no problems with Paarhammer, they are really good but I suggest you get at least two quotes for your windows.

Posted Sunday 1 Jun 2014 @ 11:59:04 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

wlb said:
I tend to agree. Tilt and turn are far superior to casement windows when it comes to ventilation, but they're not really designed for environments where fly screens are required.

On a tilt and turn window, flyscreens are applied to the outside of the window. They work just the same as flyscreens applied to the inside of the window but they are out of reach to pets and children unless the window is open. We have found the flyscreens last longer on the outside compared to the inside.

If you have casement windows with flyscreens you need some sort of winder or remote window operation because the screen gets in the way - with a tilt and turn you operate the window directly, the screen is outside.

Posted Sunday 1 Jun 2014 @ 12:05:16 pm from IP #
wlb
Member

Sorry about the confusing mess above. When rereading my original post, immediately after posting it, I found that I'd written casement when I meant awning. I edited it immediately but I must have clicked on Quote instead of Edit, and so I now have 2 posts with the correction only appearing in the second one. And this forum doesn't allow you to delete your post. That's what happens when you try to watch TV at the same time.

The only tilt and turn windows I've seen in the flesh don't pivot on the edge. They pivot about 1/4 of the way in from the edge, so when they turn, part of the window pivots outwards, and a screen would prevent this. Don't know what brand they were.

Posted Monday 2 Jun 2014 @ 12:32:43 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

Aha. I wondered how you managed to call top hinged windows casements

I can't imagine how the windows you saw could be tilt and turn. If the pivot is not on the edge of the window then there would have to be some mighty complicated gagetry involved to make it tilt as well as turn!

I've seen a LOT of Tilt & Turn windows and I have yet to see one that pivots outside when it is opening. I can assure you that a normal T&T can have flyscreen safely applied to the outside:

Posted Monday 2 Jun 2014 @ 2:35:31 am from IP #
wlb
Member

Ta. Complicated!! You're right there. It had a frame within a frame. It was about 10 years ago.

I still intend to separate windows from the ventilation function when we redo the house. Cheaper windows, no sealing necessary, and the view is better when not looking through a flyscreen.

Posted Monday 2 Jun 2014 @ 2:48:47 am from IP #
gazmo88
Member

Bushwalker, how did the cost compare to locally produced windows ?

wlb, you might want to check out Geoffrey Bawa's take on "typhoon windows" which may be a nice solution for ventilating your non opening windows

cheers

Posted Monday 2 Jun 2014 @ 10:46:23 am from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

gazmo88, when we bought the bulk of the windows (2010/11), the price was significantly cheaper (including freight!) and delivery was faster than quoted by Paarhammer. With this latest batch, we did not get a comparative quote as we wanted the new windows to match the existing, but the price per window actually came down! It's possible the difference between local and import is not as great now due to the currency exchange rate but I don't know. I also don't know if Paarhammer has improved it's delivery time, they may have.

Compared to average quality local windows, these are definitely dearer if that is your question.

My suggestion is: Investigate and get at least 2 quotes.

Posted Monday 2 Jun 2014 @ 1:26:36 pm from IP #
gazmo88
Member

Thanks Bushwalker,

Have had a number of quotes now including from overseas. The variability is quite amazing.

Our windows will be one of our largest costs, so we are being extremely cautious

Cheers

Posted Monday 2 Jun 2014 @ 11:09:27 pm from IP #
wlb
Member

gazmo88 said:wlb, you might want to check out Geoffrey Bawa's take on "typhoon windows" which may be a nice solution for ventilating your non opening windows

cheers

Thanks Gazmo, I can't find anything. Got any links or hints as to where I should look?

Posted Tuesday 3 Jun 2014 @ 3:35:51 am from IP #
gazmo88
Member

Sorry,

You might have had a chance if I had not had brain fade.

Its a MONSOON window.

Googling "Geoffrey Bawa Monsoon Window" should get some results.

The paper:
The Applicability of the Bio-Climatic Facade in a Hot and
Humid Climate
A Study of Geoffrey Bawa’s Architectural Works

Has some nice diagrams on the opening page and if you look at the "State Mortgage Bank Columbo 1976 - 1978" you will see a diagram showing his "Bioclimatic facade" There is a much better drawing on page 4.

There is also some research on the performance of this arrangement.

This paper is also useful:
http://plea-arch.org/ARCHIVE/2007/html/pdf/P0547.pdf

And this one has a very useful photo:
http://www.unige.ch/cuepe/html/plea2006/Vol1/PLEA2006_PAPER134.pdf

Sorry for the confusion

Posted Tuesday 3 Jun 2014 @ 8:02:09 am from IP #
wlb
Member

gazmo88 said:
Sorry for the confusion

Not at all, Gazmo. Thankyou for taking the time to provide more info.
I haven't read the papers yet, but I get the gist of the design from the drawings and close-up photo in them.
I'll comment more once I've had time to read and digest them.

Posted Tuesday 3 Jun 2014 @ 9:28:39 am from IP #
Lyndon
Member

Another thing we wanted to share was our fly screens. Ecostar recommended Magicseal: http://magicsealcom.digiwebhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/brochure/insectscreen.5.pdf. Great product, custom but not cheap. Their melbourne supplier installed little ramps to allow space for the casement window handles. Nice job and finish. Screens are in the inside and will last for years out of the weather.

Posted Friday 6 Jun 2014 @ 9:19:21 pm from IP #
Bushwalker
Member

Those screens look good Lyndon. Can you post a photo of the casement handle solution?

Even so, I would still prefer an outside solution. If there are bugs between the screen and the window and you want to open/close the window then you will probably let them in. Kids or pets are a bit of a hazard for them as previously mentioned.

We use fine black stainless mesh for our screens. The only way they can deteriorate is by something hitting them, weather is a non issue for them and UV has zero impact. What sort of mesh is in your screens, by the look of the flexibility it doesn't look like SS. Plastic/Fibreglass mesh eventually deteriorates in UV light, been there, done that. I guess the last question is, can you replace the mesh if it deteriorates or gets damaged?

Posted Saturday 7 Jun 2014 @ 2:30:12 am from IP #

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