Has anybody read the latest doom and gloom scenarios put out by the UN about Climate Change. 1,000,000 Deaths from Climate Change by 2030.What a load of unmitigated cobblers. We may as well add to that 1,000,000 deaths through Aides, 1,000,000 deaths through automobile accidents, 1,000,000 deaths through disease etc etc. This is the type of thing that I have been warning about. Doom and Gloom scenarios put forward as fact when in fact there are no facts but guesstamation based on maybe's and perhaps. Sure the world might be getting hotter but it does this on a regular basis without any help from man. If we are in one of the Earths hot cycles then nothing we do or say is going to change it but this will be the trigger for all the Climate Change faithful to press Government to tax CO2 regardless of the flow on effect to our citizens based on assumptions that may or may not be true.
UN Doom and Gloom prophesies
(20 posts) (10 voices)-
OptexSolar
EcoOnline"there are no facts but guesstamation"
I guess we should throw out the 50 or so years of research into climate science and ignore the 95% majority of climate scientists who say climate change is real and it's a pressing issue - and what - just listen to you right?
Posted Saturday 4 Dec 2010 @ 2:50:27 am from IP # -
Only a million. We need about 4 billion less people for the earth to rebuild to its former condition. Mother nature is working on it though. Human activities like over breeding, pollution, over fishing and deforestation are just making it a slightly quicker process.
Posted Saturday 4 Dec 2010 @ 6:47:23 am from IP # -
Sojin_Muneshi
Member- Yes, you shouldnt trust those "pinko surrender monkey" UN types!
Just look at all that time the UN weapons Inspectors spent in Iraq, not being able to find the WMD's, even writing reports they didnt exist?
Yet George "Dumbya", and "Dick" Cheney, and Ronald "Dum"sfeld were able to locate them in trucks, railcars etc - and stepped in where the UN feared to act and invaded Iraq and found, (well their still looking!) all those WMD's that the UN said were not there! (hmmm they must have shipped them off shore at the last minute?)
You just cant trust those UN fellas!
Its interesting to note even the ultra conservative Rupert Murdoch takes the view
- "we owe the planet the benefit of the doubt".The evidence of global warming - ie increasing global temperatures, are beyond argument. To deny that is to deny science.
There are scientests who dispute the role of carbon emissions, and many others who support the theory.
If it turns out that its not due to carbon emissions, but the other acknowledged green house gases, or even some other cause, then we STILL have a problem! if it continues and accelerates, ie increased desertation, increased sea levels etc.
We owe Future generations our consideration, not our greed and ignorance!
But rockabye hits it on the head, we need to stop this silly capitalism based "growth" model that requires "consumer" population growth to feed economic growth for "profits".
If we dont manage that, Mother Nature will.
Society and governments need to stop swallowing the finance markets view that if we make the fat man fatter eventually the thin man will be fed.
By the time the greedy fat man's stopped gourging himself, there wont be any food/fish left for anyone else, and they will starve, like many are already.
regards
Sojin Muneshi
Posted Saturday 4 Dec 2010 @ 9:23:39 am from IP # -
thatmosis
MemberOptexSolar, whatever floats your boat, if you want to listen to me then go ahead. I for one have never said the Global Warming isnt happening but dispute the fact or lack of facts that man is responsible.
Sojin_Muneshi, cant let facts get in the way of a good war, that would be un American.It didnt matter if there were WMD's or not America was just going to do what ever it wanted as usual and save the world,lol. The fact that there were never any WMD's didnt matter a fig. As for the UN, Ive seen first hand what they are about and wouldnt give them the time of day and thats being very polite.
Global Warming is a natural phenomenon that has happened many times before in Earth's history and will continue to happen even when homo sapien is dead and buried. What it is doing is allowing people to cash in on the gullibility of others to the tune of billions of dollars and for government to actually have a way of taxing people for nothing to increase their bottom lines.
Over the years I have seen and heard nothing that definitely links man and global warming but have seen a lot of maybes and perhaps that pass for facts.
95%??????????? probably because their jobs and subsidies rely on them giving their benefactors the answers that they want to hear. Have a good look at the weather now in Australia and overseas and what we are seeing is rain, more rain than we have had in 10 years and extreme cold overseas not the doom and gloom scenarios of drought and heat waves across the world that had been predicted or is this just a glich in the weather sent to throw us off the track. As the man said "how can we take as gospel that the world is heading for disaster in 10 or 20 years when the climate change scientists cant get the weather right for next week".Posted Saturday 4 Dec 2010 @ 10:28:22 am from IP # -
Science has produced very reliable weather forecasts in recent decades and that accuracy has now allowed our farmers to make good choices on what to grow and when to plant. So good in fact that I can get on the web and see a storm coming and make my own predictions. Just 10 years ago I couldn't do this. Science put the satellites up their and science now maps the earth to less than a mm accuracy.
The same science is measuring the deforestation, ocean temperatures and currents and it's telling us that WE are wiping out critical lifeforms that support our existence. Not nature, WE are doing it.
Posted Saturday 4 Dec 2010 @ 7:32:06 pm from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterTo be honest, I think thatmosis gets bored and likes to troll the forums a bit just to stir people up. If he wants to live in his little world of self denialist fantasy, that's fine, there's always a certain % of the population who simply will never accept responsibility for their actions.
The ATA forum is here for people to make positive contributions, yet a few posters keep coming back time after time to post such rubbish. There are plenty of forums for denialists out there, I have to wonder why they show up here...
Yes, forums are about debate, but on the question of man made climate change the debate was over years ago. No, you can't prove it 100% as there is always a possibility of doubt. Just voicing a doubt creates it and so it is not 100% proven, but that doesn't make it not so.
So, we all need to stop feeding the trolls, and I will look at removing posts that add nothing to the positive discussions that normally reside here.
Posted Saturday 4 Dec 2010 @ 11:31:35 pm from IP # -
I respectfully disagree with the 'troll' section of your reply Lance. We need to be as inclusive as possible in today's world.
"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." Albert Einstein *
*Copyright: Kevin Harris 1995 (may be freely distributed with this acknowledgement)
Posted Sunday 5 Dec 2010 @ 12:06:12 am from IP # -
Jeffbloggs
MemberI partially agree with both Rockabye and with Lance. It is important to keep discussions open, but at the same time when posts are only inflammatory and don't contribute to a better understanding of the subject, then the posts become disruptive of the discussion at hand. It is quite common that people simply ignore posts, often so when they do have a adequate response for a post, and likewise in the interest of keeping the forum "open minded", I think people in the know should simply ignore such inflammatory remarks altogether, and only respond to actual contributions. Besides Spam is treated similarly.
On the subject of this thread, I think that thatmosis has a point when he says that the UN, USA and even Australia etc. have considerable "vested" interests in promoting MMCC in a particular way, as to promote a continuance of world economic policy and to not undermine the perceived authority they have, as to further polarise public opinion to hide certain truths. Even though sites like Wikileaks can have a damaging effect, and in my view shouldn't even be necessary in the first place, they do shed light on the still "human" fallibility, especially in those "drunk" with power. These are very sensitive issues, and can easily lead to the "dark side" of certain arguments, including an understanding of why even extremists can justify their cause. BTW I am not at all condoning such extremest political views and definitely not violent actions to make these views heard, but there is a natural underlying desire in humans to fight injustice and when our views become manifest as the truth, they lead us to act like we "normally" would not.
Simply providing a solution to the MMCC (real or not) by replacing fossil consumption with centralised industrialised and metered corporate owned RE infrastructure, is not a sustainable or adequate solution. The control of a few will still become the problem, and with that power comes the ability to abuse the system that should really be to the benefit of the people. Ultimately we need to distribute both the power of renewable energy, along with the "power" to control ones own destiny, through sustainable resource use, back to the people to whom it belongs.
Thatmosis posts are sometimes based on a "gut-feeling" rather than what others consider facts, but this does not warrant censorship of his views. Likewise we often need to be reminded that just because we are part of a growing "renewable minded" community, that minorities are often the birthplace of change, and if they can positively contribute to a greater understanding of the underlying issues, we should at the least give them some consideration.
This however relies on everyone, including thatmosis, to accept each others views, and if that differs from their own, that they try to substantiate their position to enable others to understand their position and likewise re-ascertain if their positions are correct (ie teach or learn). After all, the purpose of such forums is to trade perceptions, and if we blatantly deny another's views we could all end up being blind to the actual truth.
Posted Sunday 5 Dec 2010 @ 2:48:15 am from IP # -
thatmosis
MemberLance- I dont troll and i dont get bored as I have enough on my plate to keep me well occupied but i do have question and opinions that may get up peoples noses but are food for thought.
Now here's a little something that really gets my back up. The alarmist latest ploy is to target children by saying that this may be the last Xmas as the polar Ice Shelfs are getting smaller and Santa wont have enough room to launch his sleigh. That in my opinion is the act of a desperate group of people and should be roundly condemned by all. If this is the depths that the Warmists have to sink then they are beyond contempt.
I have half expected to have someone try and remove my posts as they go against the Climate Change religion that one must adhere to to be part of the Forum scene so it no big surprise. To have an opposing opinion is an anathema to the believers and its now rearing its ugly head here as censorship of the worst kind. As for the Climate Change debate being over it is never over as long as there are opposing views. The warmists might like to think its over but more and more people are starting to question the validity of some of the so called facts that have been presented to back their arguments.
We were told that Australia would continue in drought for years to come and that we would run out of water very soon, dams were not built on this advice and costly and ineffective desal plants built that didnt meet the needs and are now obsolete at a tremendous cost to the Tax payer. They were wrong and people are now saying "what else were they wrong about". The credence of the Climate Change faithful is taking a battering with their Doom and Gloom scenarios falling one by one as mother nature does her thing.
The Climate may continue to get warmer but it will be nature and not man who is the culprit and no amount of taxation will eleviate what nature will thrust upon us.We can all work our little butts off saving CO2 for years and have mother nature unleash a volcano that undoes all the work of all the believers in a day or two.
By all means continue the work in RE and succeed in making it a viable source of energy but at the same time realize that until that time in the distant future we will either have to rely on coal fired Power stations or go Nuclear. To deny this simple fact is to show that ones head is firmly buried in the sand.Posted Monday 6 Dec 2010 @ 12:12:07 am from IP # -
OptexSolar
EcoOnline"I ... dispute the fact or lack of facts that man is responsible"
97% of climatologists believe man is responsible for climate change:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/01/97_of_active_climatologists_ag.php"Have a good look at the weather now in Australia and overseas and what we are seeing is rain, more rain than we have had in 10 years and extreme cold overseas not the doom and gloom scenarios of drought and heat waves across the world that had been predicted"
More rain is predicted as the earth warms due to high evaporation rates, this includes more droughts as the water evaporates faster i.e., more extremes. This year is going to be the warmest on record for most of the temperature records, which is especially note worthy considering the sun has recently gone though a record minimum.
"We can all work our little butts off saving CO2 for years and have mother nature unleash a volcano that undoes all the work of all the believers in a day or two."
Volcano emit a faction of the CO2 as compared to humans...
"As the man said "how can we take as gospel that the world is heading for disaster in 10 or 20 years when the climate change scientists cant get the weather right for next week". "
There is a difference between meteorologists and climatologists, the later focus on long term average predictions and say nothing about the weather next week, that's the meteorologist job.
The number of things you don't know about climate science or have confused in your post makes me question whether or not you are genuine... or if you're just scattering your posts with disinformation just to get a rise out of people.
Posted Monday 6 Dec 2010 @ 1:51:40 am from IP # -
Lance
Key MasterOptex, that is my feelings pretty much spot on, the evidence is there, the records are there, and yet denialists just keep spouting the same old tired, disproved arguments. I guess I get tired of dealing with people who won't deal with the bleeding obvious, we don't have time for endless debates, changes need to be made now.
The ATA forums are here to discuss renewable technologies and how to reduce emissions and make the world a cleaner place to live, not to keep questioning whether we should even reduce emissions when the vast majority of those who understand climate say we must. Continually debating the reality of climate change is to me is no different to trolling as it just wastes of everyone's time, adds nothing to the discussion and goes against the general ideals of the forum...
Posted Monday 6 Dec 2010 @ 2:44:46 am from IP # -
Benny
MemberTo some extent I agree with your suggestion of deleting these threads Lance, but then I don't really like such censorship. People like Thatmosis will then just tell everyone that he was censored by the "religious warmists" to prevent him expressing his perfectly valid opinions. I think most people here now appreciate that nothing will change Thatmosis' opinions. The best option is just to ignore his threads and just don't post answers. Anyone who thinks that the UN has ulterior motives in everything it does (global domination ?), the climate has warmed before so it can't possibly be caused my human/CO2 emissions, AGW is not a science - its a religion, the gov't only supports it so they can raise more tax revenue, scientists only agree with AGW because they want to satisfy their benefactors, volcanoes emit comparable amounts of CO2 and takes the very poor tack of confusing weather with climate, just isn't going to change their mind.
Posted Monday 6 Dec 2010 @ 4:47:30 am from IP # -
We need to apply the same approach the way the unrelenting climate change denial media does. That is to continue an unrelenting science and fact tsunami to dispute their crap and make sure everyone is aware of the calamity facing humanity if we fail to act now. The best option is to keep presenting the science full on.
Posted Monday 6 Dec 2010 @ 10:24:58 pm from IP # -
thatmosis;
I am confused as to your actual position on climate change. I have always thought that you believed in a natural and perpetual change that is now contributed to by man made emissions but the contributing proportion of those emissions is what you find confusing. You also seem to become frustrated whenever climate change is referred to as 'man made', a term which suggests a 100 % cause. I don't doubt your passion.I am interested to understand your position, if your position has changed of late and if you support to some degree a need to reduce man made carbon emissions and pollution in general. BTW, difference of opinion is necessary for healthy debate and I think the U.N. report provides a necessary case for social comment.
There has been another recent report that stated planet Earth may be on the verge of a 95% mass extinction event. Some would argue that this scenario should be of much greater concern than a 1 billion culling of the Homo sapien species.
Posted Tuesday 7 Dec 2010 @ 1:35:22 am from IP # -
thatmosis
MemberProve your theories and I will willing go away but until then I will be a thorn in your sides.
I dont and have never believed that the current Climate Change era we are going through has anything to do with Man. Okay we do inject into the atmosphere some CO2 and other noxious gases but hasnt the world been through this scenario well before man came onto the scene. Thats the problem with the Climate Change Faithful, they believe that man is the culprit because a few centuries of figures say so, whilst if the ice cores over hundred of thousands of years are inspected the earth has done this all before, not once but many times. I have never said that I knew all about the so called science of meteorology but from what has occured in the last month neither do the meteroligists.
The term "long term average predictions" was used and illustrates my point precisely. Predictions- the act of prediction, a foretelling, a prophecy. In my former line of work that was called a guess and got people killed. Sure there may be pointers that this or that is going to happen but there is no definitive way of saying yes that is going to happen because we think it will. Thats like going to a fortune teller and asking if you are going to win lotto. Facts not hearsay or conjecture or maybe or perhaps but facts is what is required and facts that will stand up to any scrutiny.
As for the rain we are having, are you saying this is what is normal now as opposed to months ago when we were in drought and that was normal. Did or did not the State Governments of Australia take the predictions of the meteorologists and decide that dams would never reach capacity again so we had to have desal plants to cope. You cant have your cake and eat it to.
Im all for renewable technologies and use them all the time on my home, 100% renewable, which is probably more than can be said for some on this forum but I will not be corralled into the idea that man is responsible and a tax will eleviate our problems.
I am willing to change my opinions if there is irrefutable proof than man is the culprit but if not then its up to you to change your opinions. Of course you will come back and say that there is no way that you can get 100% proof which is another way of saying that the science is not in and the ball is still in play.
As for banning me from the forum thats about what I have been expecting and am surprised that it has taken this long. If you want to go ahead but it will once again prove that you are scared of a dissenting voice asking the too hard questions and someone who will not bow down to the God of Man Made Climate Change. I am secure enough in my beliefs that I dont really care one way or the other but it seems there are some on this forum who find my constant nitpicking at their religion causes them some grief. As for those that believe that a new tax is the panacea for all our supposed ills I dont care either as we are almost fully self conatained and it will have little or no effect on me or mine but will cause untold damaged to those not fortunate enough to be able to live a decent life at the moment.Posted Tuesday 7 Dec 2010 @ 10:32:38 am from IP # -
Benny
MemberNo one was talking of banning YOU Thatmosis - just the topic. You've made some interesting contributions on technical articles - which is what most people are here for.
So what do we do to convince Thatty fellow "fanatically religious Climate change faithful"? (And I thought we believed in it through following scientific methods) He says he won't believe us until we give him 100% proof that man-released CO2 is causing GW, which no one can do, not even the most religious climatologist (not meteorologist Thatm), will do. So do we just end it there ? If we have a 99% probability (prediction) that AGW is correct, then its just a guess and not worth bothering with according to Thatm. If its not 100% then its "foretelling/prophecy". I'll remember this the next time the weather forecast says there's an 80% chance of rain tomorrow and not bother to take an umbrella because they're obviously just guessing.
Posted Wednesday 8 Dec 2010 @ 12:29:02 am from IP # -
Is thatmosis never driving a car because it can not 100% proven that he will arrive alive?
It is also strange that he believes in science. How else would he believe in ice core data? This is quite a complicate matter after all.
And he has even proven that in his specific case solar energy is cheaper than fossil fuel!
But somehow there seems to be a specific switch (most likely activated by Allan Jones or Andrew Bolt) to distinguish between scientists and "scientists".
I am a "scientist" by the way.
Posted Wednesday 8 Dec 2010 @ 1:53:59 am from IP #
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