petemoss
Member
There seems to be only one Australian supplier of Nickel Iron (NiFe) batteries. The list down the bottom of this page shows where they can be obtained globally.
Does anyone know where the Nickel Iron (NiFe) batteries can be obtained in Australia ?
Pete
Lance
Key Master
I think the problem with them (apart from low charge efficiency and high self discharge) is the price. From Ironcore at least, even for the largest size, which is the most economical, it comes out at around US$640 per kWh, which is very high. And that doesn't include GST, shipping and fees etc.
petemoss
Member
Working it out at todays USD-->AUD rate, and adding shipping,insurance,GST,import duties and customs costs, and using the most economical (1000 Ah cells) for a 48V system, it comes to $ 39,762.47 (48 kWh). That is $828.28 per kWh.
Looking at a similar setup with lead/acid, for a 48V system, 1080 Ah (51.84 kWh), it comes to $ 261.73 per kWh. Yes, a huge price difference.
petemoss
Member
Here are some facts from the BeUtilityFree website - Nickel-Iron versus lead-Acid
Lance
Key Master
Yes, all those are correct, but two important ones, which I have mentioned, ie charge efficiency and self discharge, are conveniently ignored. This is called cherry picking...
And, of course, there is the insanely high prices of these units. If anything, they should be cheap, after all, iron and nickel are much cheaper than the materials used in most other batts...
David
Member
Lance said:
And, of course, there is the insanely high prices of these units. If anything, they should be cheap, after all, iron and nickel are much cheaper than the materials used in most other batts...
The nickel plates are actually "nickel plated" unlike the original "Edison cells" so they should be quite a bit cheaper than they are 
Wid
Member
We have been importing these NiFe batteries since beginning of this year.
We have a test setup of 40 cells 1200Ah NiFe batteries (57.4kW) and have been testing the batteries for a few months now.
Yes, the bigger batteries are more economical. If the delivery time is not critical, we can save freight cost by combining orders.
Regarding the price difference with other battery chemistries, we should take into account that the DOD of NiFe is much deeper for the same life time, so you could use a smaller kWh for the same useful kWh.
Not to mention the expected lifetime that is in the order of twice of FLA.
Regarding the charging efficiencies, please bear in mind that the 50% charging efficiency is only for the last 20% of the capacity. Up to 50-60%, the charging efficiency is pretty much 90-95%, decreasing as we approach 80%
The other advantage of not tooping the batteries up till 100%, if that the electrolyte loss is then very minimal. We have been running our batteries for a few months now and had never to top up the electrolyte. We will be testing overcharging them during the hot summer months.
Regarding the self discharge, our batteries are getting less than 1% self discharge per day. For cycle use, this is completely irrelevant. We will be conducting more self discharge test in the time ahead.
A big reason to use these batteries is that they can be overcharged (you need to top up the electrolyte a bit more often) and you can completely discharge them without taking a big penalty in their life time.
But, the main reason we are importing them, is the environment, the components of NiFe batteries are harmless for the environment and even the used electrolyte (recommended to change the electrolyte every 7 years), you could dilute it and use it in your garden to bring up the soil PH if needed.
Unfortunately, the internet is full of myths from people who have never used these batteries. These batteries (like all other batteries), are not for all people in all situations, but we can use their strength for renewable energy storage in stationary applications.
I hope this helps.
Lance
Key Master
I think you are missing the point. NiFe are more expensive than lithium batts, and nowhere near as efficient. The point is they are simple tech using cheap materials and yet are very expensive, so they are simply overpriced. Sure, you can use a smaller bank, but you can do the same with lithium and they will be cheaper. Lithium are sealed, so need no maintenance, and have almost no self discharge.
I realise that part of the high price is due to the shipping weight, but there is definitely a good profit being made by someone in the supply chain...
Well I love the idea of using NiFe.
Please send me your latest pricelist.
I'm also interested to know what savings can be had by waiting and combining freight.
I have a couple of free second hand lead acid deep cycle batteries to start me out with but my long term goal is to go NiFe.
I have no interest in LiIon or Lead Acid as a long term solution.
I'd mach rather the benefits of NiFe.
I've also always wondered if one could build their own NiFe batteries using better thicker materials that would last several life times.
The extra space they would take up does not worry me.
But I don't know if you could get decent capacity using just plates? Or do you have to use the brilo pad style structures to get enough surface area to increase the storage capacity?
.-.-.
David
Member
vk4akp said:
Please send me your latest pricelist.
???
ATA does not supply NiFe cells at least not that I'm aware of.
You need to go either someone that sells or sells & installs them. As a last resort import them yourself. I'd say I sell them but that is really only partly true as I've yet to have anyone that can afford cost. They also require quite a bit of maintenance, while they might be very long lived they are about the least efficient type of cell for off-grid use available today, correctly sized LiFePO4 cells with the appropriate BMS and proper accurate charging system should see them lasting a very long time indeed.
.
petemoss
Member
Lance said:
I think you are missing the point. NiFe are more expensive than lithium batts, and nowhere near as efficient. The point is they are simple tech using cheap materials and yet are very expensive, so they are simply overpriced.
Having obtained a quote for NiFe batteries a few months ago, I think it is a myth also that NiFe are very expensive. The quote came out at UNDER the cost for our Exide FLA batteries.
vk4akp said:
Well I love the idea of using NiFe.
Please send me your latest pricelist.
I'd suggest you PM Wid for a quote.
Lance
Key Master
Using current Ironcore pricing, their 1000Ah cells come out at $504/kWh inc GST, so certainly better than previously, but still higher than a Winston Battery LiFePO4 1000Ah cell, which currently come in around $485/kWh.
My personal view on lead-acid batts here in Oz is that they are overpriced...
The one thing that is very attractive about NiFe batts is their extreme robustness. Had a BMS failure in a small lithium pack here recently and it killed one of the cells with overdischarge. Fortunately the cells are readily available and were only $30, but could have been a lot more expensive had it been a big bank.
I have been thinking about running a smallish-medium size bank of NiFe batts for testing and as a backup system, the budget just can't afford it as yet...
This is very interesting.
I read an article recently about life cycle assessment of different batteries. I don't think it included Edison Cells. However, Lead acid was in the order of ~2x storage (over lifetime) vs energy to produce the battery itself. Lithium is a factor of 10. Pumped geohydro is ~210 (depends on the site), compressed air underground storage may be several times that. Of course, this didn't take recycling into account at the end of useful life.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/march/store-electric-grid-030513.html
I'm guessing that Edison Cells are rather easily recycled compared to the other options, esp compared to Lithium?
The ability to add Edison Cells to a current battery bank throughout their life is a huge win. Start off with a small simple 12V system, add cells over time as they become cheaper and your needs increase (eg add that home entertainment system...). Takes that particular type of mental/economic stress out of going off grid in many ways (eg, making potentially expensive judgement calls right from the start as to how big to size it). Also make it easy to add cells over time as you also add power sources (eg extra solar panels as they become cheaper, wind, hydro, etc).
Sandymac
Member
Re: "higher than a Winston Battery LiFePO4 1000Ah cell, which currently come in around $485/kWh".
I have a bit of experience with Li-polymer, 18650, and 38120 Lithium cells. I have had 2 fires one spectacular and one with heat smoke and acrid smell - fortunately both fires were outside! The lifespan of these cells is not very great (1 to 3 years?). I seem to have too many dead power tool batteries gathering dust, but I have embarked on a policy of removing all cells and replacing with Samsung 18650 2.6mAh cells. Don't use the Chinese ones claiming big mAh capacity, like 9800 and weighing a mere 38g per cell - I find they have less than 1000 mAh.
Back on topic... the lifetime survival rate of both Lead-acid and Lithium appears to be MUCH lower than NiFe by a factor of x5 or x10 and this needs to be considered when comparing prices.
BTW I see Tesla PowerWalls (Lithium 18650) being promoted as a way to store cheap night time power for use during the day. I calculate it would take 40 or 50 years to get your money back from this sort of use even if the cells could last this long!
Has anyone seen a reasoned argument for the excitement for PowerWalls - other than as a Uninterruptable Power Supply?
wlb
Member
There are in Colac, Vic.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/222063996044
erichgamba
Member
I wouldn't recommend the NiFe batteries there efficiency is shockingly low. I used to have a 1 kW solar-system with a 24V 400Ah FLA battery bank and didn't need to connect to the gride for most of the year, except maybe once or twice during the month of December. Since I got the Changhong NF400-S I installed an additional 500 W of panels and I now have to connect once or twice every month to the grid. I think Li-ion are a much better choice.
It is interesting reading what people perceive about Nickel Iron Batteries.
We have been selling these in Australia for over 10 years and my battery bank (1000ah x 48volt) is now just over seven years old and still performing exceptionally well.
I have a second battery bank at a remote property I have (400ah x 12volt) that is the same age. (please ask questions about this battery bank such as use, self discharge, electolyte maintenance etc, I dont want to put it all up in one post)
My house is fully electric (except solar hot water) and runs off our battery bank daily.
In seven years I have topped the battery bank up twice. It will be due for another top up in around six months.
I do not understand why self discharge is a key point in these discussions. In regular use self, discharge is a non isssue (for most types of batteries).
Price is also another key topic. Please remember that you will replace all other types of battery banks and their price will increase over time.
Nickel Iron batteries do not wear out, only the electrolyte. The cost to replace the electrolyte is around 7% the initial cost of the battery bank and once replaced you have between 8 - 12 years life out of this electrolye (depending on how hard you work these batteries) and this can be done over and over again.
We spent significant time identifying manufacturers across the globe, buying and testing their products. We have been in partnership with our manufacturer for over 10 years.
We do not sell Changhong batteries and our battery efficiency is over 80% over the seven years.
I hope this provides a little more information on NiFe batteries.
mick_queensland
Member
Ironcore, could you tell me the best charge controller to use for NiFe batteries? I am seriously considering a system based on a NiFe battery and I haven't found any kind of controller to suit yet. Do I resort to design and building it myself...
IAEA
Member
Ironcore Batteries states ......
We have been selling these in Australia for over 10 years and my battery bank (1000ah x 48volt) is now just over seven years old and still performing exceptionally well.
What % DoD do you employ against your primary sys.? What has been the lowest, what has been the highest %?
IAEA
IAEA
Member
Post some pics for us all. Be careful to edit the images, so that you only show what you want to show. Use one of the free offerings on the net - a few here use postimg.
Would like to see the build quality of your sys. and the architecture employed.
Do you employ a BMS?
IAEA
IAEA
Member
"The new wave of nickel iron batteries have been manufactured for over 30 years and are still in use today, still producing one hundred percent of their rated capacity. Ironcore batteries believe NiFe batteries have the possibility of many years in excess of the 40 years and by replacing the electrolyte when the battery is taking longer to charge or no longer holds its rated capacity."
What has been your personal experience in relation to longevity of NiFe batteries? What is meant when: " ...... possibility of many years in excess of the 40 years ...... " How many yrs. past 40? Have you replaced the electrolyte in your primary sys., and if so, what was the expense incurred?
IAEA
GOH2
Member
What is the price per kWh for quality packs?
I may have read that a 12V (10 1.2V cells - rather similar to NiMH/NiCd?) battery pack might readily be upgraded to 24V/48V - by adding further packs, without worrying about having different levels of usage.
Would seem rather an advantage if true - though I wonder whether it might be preferable to first replace the electrolyte in the used, older pack/s.
'Hippie' (POSITRONIC), on Whirlpool, seems to have moved on from LFP to NiFe - presumably to cope with the heat/humidity stress on batteries in the far north.
Under global warming I did wonder about battery longevity with the ATA solar lighting project in Timor-Leste?
I had thought of funding Lance, or the fellow involved in Timor system design, to trial a NiFe setup.
Might even be a 3 cell 3.6V battery pack. Likely suitable for LED lighting - with DC/DC conversion for 5V USB output??
As previously mentioned a new charging protocol might seem necessary. I wonder whether the 1.4V system for MiMH would be suitable??
[Personally, I prefer to use the safe LFP chemistry (with a steady 3.6V output) for my AA/AAA cells; compared to more dangerous lithion chemistries, which although at a nominal 3.7V, like single use alkaline/zinc cells drop in voltage (4.2/1.5V) with use over time.
With eneloops rated at some 2000 cycles, must admit I'm somewhat perplexed at the use of only marginally lighter li-poly batteries with much lower longevity.
Have a second AA already charged, to pop into your mobile? No need for an integrated Li battery charging cycle tying up the phone, with the battery needing periodic replacement?]
IAEA
Member
From the Battery University.
"Nickel-iron (NiFe)
After inventing nickel-cadmium in 1899, Sweden’s Waldemar Jungner tried to substitute iron for cadmium to save money; however, poor charge efficiency and gassing (hydrogen formation) prompted him to abandon the development without securing a patent.
In 1901, Thomas Edison continued the development of the nickel-iron battery as a substitute to lead acid for electric vehicles. He claimed that nickel-iron was “far superior to batteries using lead plates and acid” and counted on the emerging electric vehicle market. He lost out when gasoline-powered cars took over and was deeply disappointed when the auto industry did not adopt nickel-iron as the starter, lighting and ignition battery (SLI) for cars. (See BU-1002: Electric Powertrain, HEV, PHEV.)
The nickel-iron battery (NiFe) uses an oxide-hydroxide cathode and an iron anode with potassium hydroxide electrolyte that produces a nominal cell voltage of 1.20V. NiFe is resilient to overcharge and over-discharge and can last for more than 20 years in standby applications. Resistance to vibrations and high temperatures made NiFe the preferred battery for mining in Europe; during World War II the battery powered German V-1 flying bombs and the V-2 rockets. Other uses are railroad signaling, forklifts and stationary applications.
NiFe has a low specific energy of about 50Wh/kg, has poor low-temperature performance and exhibits high self-discharge of 20–40 percent a month. This, together with high manufacturing cost, prompted the industry to stay faithful to lead acid.
Improvements are being made, and NiFe is becoming a viable alternative to lead acid in off-grid power systems. Pocket plate technology lowered the self-discharge; the battery is virtually immune to over- and under-charging and should last for over 50 years. This compares to less than 12 years with deep cycle lead acids in cycling mode. NiFe costs about four times as much as lead acid and is comparable with Li-ion in purchase price.
Nickel-iron batteries use a taper charge similar to NiCd and NiMH. Do not use constant voltage charge as with lead acid and lithium-ion batteries, but allow the voltage to float freely. Similar to nickel-based batteries, the cell voltage begins to drop at full charge as the internal gas builds up and the temperature rises. Avoid overcharging as this causes water evaporation and dry-out.
Low capacity can often be improved by applying a high discharge current of up to three times the C-rate for periods of 30 minutes. Assure that the temperature of the electrolyte does not exceed 46˚C (115˚F)."
IAEA
Thanks for your questions, I will start below my last post and work my way down to answer questions.
I personally use an Outback MX60. It is generally not the charge controller that limits the use of Nickel Iron Batteries, it is the inverter.
As a NiFe has a working range of between .9volts per cell (we suggest 9.5)and 1.7 volts per cell most inverters on the market do not have the working range to utilise the benifits of these batteries.
I have my selectronic inverter set at 100% DOD. Just to clarify 100% is the lowest setting on my inverter which is 39.6 volts (48volt battery bank). It is not 100% of the battery.
Our battery bank is pictured on our web site http://www.ironcorebatteries.com.au look on the last page and it i the one at the rear of the two battery banks in the photo.
I have my bank charge up to 58 volts (1.45volts per cell). I know I will get alot of questions about why dont I charge up higher but please lets cover this later.
I have had installers look at my system and tell me you cannot do this or you will destroy your batteries. I have had this setting on my inverter since it was installed. They are still working.
We worked with the installer to get the most we could out of our system. As with most installers and not understanding how these batteries work, he set the inverter to what he thought and I played with the setings over a period of time to work out how I could get them most out of my batteries.
Nickel Iron batteries in therory do not wear out. The electrolyte protects the internals of the battery. You will get some build up of carbon at the bottom of the batterywhich is absorbed through the electrolyte and eventually the plastic casing will become brittle and I suspect crack but this will depend on how much they are exposeed to sunlight.
I have not repalced my electolyte. It is now just over 7 years old. It will cost less than 7% the initial cost of the battery to currently replace the electrolyte.
You can add cells to a NiFe battery at anytime without any damage or problems. You can increase the voltage or the amp hrs or both at the same time.
GOH2
Member
Some scattered thoughts IronCore.
1. I'm a little surprised by a [nominal 1.2V] cell voltage between 0.9 to 1.7V.
Rather larger than I might have anticipated, but IIRC (from Hippie?) charge efficiency might diminish significantly as one gets nearer to full capacity. So limiting charging to 1.45V (similar to NiMH/NiCd) might be reasonable - & perhaps save on topping up with distilled water?
2. Assuming 40 cells for your 48V battery pack, a 39.6V setting for your Selectronic inverter indicates a low of 0.99V for cells -effectively 1.0V.
3. NiFe is quite expensive - more so, with a further 7% added every 7 years, & limited usable (say 80%?) capacity.
I feel LFP, in cooler conditions, might presently be more cost effective.
Particularly as much longer lifetime lithium chemistry cells have now been developed.
It coming down to cost & ability to cope with global warming heat stress.
Safe chemistries being housed in [developed country] air-conditioned comfort.
4. Timor-Leste looks to simply have a battery inside - protected from sun & rain: but not tropical heat/humidity.
Presumably FLA needing periodic topping up with distilled water.
I imagine NiFe might also need some periodic topping up with distilled water.
I would be concerned at the possibility of the casing failing, & spilling caustic electrolyte in the home.
Not too dissimilar to acid from FLA?
5. I'm still willing to pay a few hundred dollars to fund a 4 or 5[?]cell 10Ah NiFe battery pack for Lance, or Alan Hutchinson & Patrick Eijsvogel, to test out an alternative development of a PV/NiFe [LED lighting/USB charging] system for timor-Leste.
I have some quality LFP lighting systems for the Timorese, but suspect (following the practical experience of Hippie) that topical heat stress may be too much; & I suspect that integrated PV/LED units may be subject to corrosion from moisture - with tropical humidity & downpours.
In most cases, you will not need to replace the electrolyte before 10 years not 7 years depending on how hard you want to work them.
I would have thought that 7% to renew a battery back to obtain another 10 years is quite reasonable and doing this over and over until the batttery casing fails is failrly inexpensive.
You are correct, charge efficiency does diminish as you charge to full as it does with most batteries that I am aware of hence the reason why I charge to 1.45.
I am not trying to fully charge the batteries as they provide me with more than ample power daily set at 1.45.
I am in a rain catchment area and we get a lot of cloud and rainfall so I utilise the most of what sun we get.
39.6 volts is what my inverter allows me to discharge to. If the inverter allowed me to discharge to 38volts I would set it at that setting.
We have customers who use a different brand inverter that discharges to 38volts and are able to utilise the stored power without damage to the battery.
Based on information I recieve from some installers, the price of our NiFe batteries are comparable to good quality lead acid batteries (I have not confirmed this as I dont go around pricing other battery types) but if this is the case, then the ongoing cost of replacing the electrolyte every 10 years seems reasonable to me.
GOH2
Member
Thanks for your response IronCore!
Inclusive (of GST, currency conversion, financial & transport costs) pricing looks to be around $2K/kWh for the small 10Ah cells - around half that for your largest cells. Arguably add a further 35% to cover a long 35 - 50 year LCOE?
However, initial costs for a 48/72Wh pack might be less than I had anticipated 
I imagine the battery is central to a Timor-Leste household lighting systems.
Eyeballing the system I might hazard around 40W PV, perhaps feeding a sealed 12V 17Ah battery - offering around 100Wh to 50% DoD. With some $30 a year for maintenance, largely needed for battery replacement costs?
I wonder what the ACTUAL specs are?
If the ATA can decide on a NiFe pack to trial (eg 3 cells in parallel [perhaps with 2S] giving 36/72Wh to deliver ~3V for LED lighting, requiring voltage boosting to 5V for USB charging - or perhaps 5 cells offering 5 to 7V needing a reduction in voltage) I can write a cheque for the supply.
{With a kilo of silver being a years income from the time of the Greeks to the middle ages I have bought this quantity of sterling coinage - thinking this might be of help to one, or two, third world moms.
No gold - a british pound sterling, in the form of a 22 carat gold 'sovereign' (around the same size as our Oz $2 'copper' coin) being worth around $400, with containing slightly less than a quarter ounce of pure gold.}
