Alternative Technology Assn Forums

1. 

   Tankie
   Member

   I have a client who wants to install the new Caroma Profile 5 4.5/3 litre dual flush toilet. It's a clever water saving design that incorporates a basin on top of the cistern for hand washing that then flows into the cistern to ultimately flush the toilet. They’ll have rainwater tanks too.

   I see no reason why this can’t be supplied with unfiltered tank water just as if it were a conventional toilet. But the builder’s plumber thinks differently. Is this just an issue of most plumbers not being familiar with the regulations for use of rainwater in homes?

   BTW, this toilet has been installed in the Josh’s House sustainable house project in Fremantle, and you can see all the design drawings and discussion at http://joshshouse.com.au

   Posted Thursday 31 Oct 2013 @ 7:50:09 am from IP #
2. 

   Lance
   Key Master

   I have to say, they are good from a water saving perspective but bad from a hygiene perspective, especially for people who flush with the lid up (see http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/07/01/1143577.htm ). With the basin directly above the bowl, the level of ecoli contamination on the tap handles etc would be off the scale, almost pointless even washing hands. I bet these things are responsible for a great many intestinal upsets without users realising it.

   Posted Thursday 31 Oct 2013 @ 9:33:43 am from IP #
3. 

   Johnnojack
   Member

   Yes bit like a public toilet isn't it? They would be better if they re-filled after flushing thru the basin spigot with no taps involved. Flush, wash hands under running spigot, leave room, dry hands.

   Posted Thursday 31 Oct 2013 @ 11:32:32 am from IP #
4. 

   Diver
   Member

   More room needed for a towel rail, mirror...and a toothbrush holder perhaps?

   Posted Thursday 31 Oct 2013 @ 11:51:57 am from IP #
5. 

   David
   Member

   Lance said:
   see http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/07/01/1143577.htm)

   That link is broken.

   Posted Thursday 31 Oct 2013 @ 12:34:13 pm from IP #
6. 

   Diver
   Member

   Tankie,

   Contact the WA Plumbers Licensing Board.

   Consumer Advice Line 1300 249 223

   The Technical Advice Line is only available to plumbers (to stop DIYers accessing advice). 1300 360 897

   Of interest, your profile states that you are a "Rainwater and Greywater installer". Doesn't this make you a plumber?

   Posted Thursday 31 Oct 2013 @ 12:59:44 pm from IP #
7. 

   Lance
   Key Master

   Link fixed now, forum was adding the end bracket to the url. You can always edit urls if they don't work, is often something simple like that.

   Posted Thursday 31 Oct 2013 @ 10:16:09 pm from IP #
8. 

   oysters
   Member

   I'm in Japan currently (since July), where I think these combined sink/toilets were invented. Some people think it was to save water, however it definitely wasn't... every single toilet I've used here so far (including brand new ones, and new ones inside the University's environmental faculties) must use at least 20L per flush, and there is no half flush setting. The main reason for them here is as a space saver in tiny apartments.

   I agree that they can be unhygienic. I feel pretty gross using one whenever I go to the toilet. Especially as you have to lean over the toilet...it kind of feels weird. Another problem, is that no matter how careful I am, washing my hands in the above-toilet-basin, I always seem to splash a few drops of water from washing my hands somewhere on the toilet below. Not really ideal. At least with a decent hand washing bowl and a well chosen tap, you can contain most of that mess. Pretty hard with a slim little confined toilet sink.

   Funnily enough, every time I've used one, there has also been a seperate hand washing basin. Seems I'm not the only person here who washes their hands seperately afterwards (I do it in addition. The above sink think I just use as a quick first rinse).

   I fully agree on the idea of re-using water for toilet flushing. And the sink in the bathroom is an obvious place to do so. However I think its best to seperate the two by a small distance. Surely its not hard to have a cistern with a seperate chamber to store greywater directly from the hand basin to wash. Though with modern low flow aerated taps, you don't use much water for washing your hands, so its not always big dent on the toilet flushing.

   Posted Monday 4 Nov 2013 @ 3:06:21 am from IP #
9. 

   Morbo
   Member

   suppose these toilets cost more than an additional watertank. This would be a few more weeks of water in summer for me

   Posted Saturday 9 Nov 2013 @ 8:38:44 am from IP #
10. 

    Tankie
    Member

    Just back to Oz after a couple of weeks away in Europe. Thanks for everyone's thoughts on the toilet with integrated basin. Yes, Oysters, not sure that I'm too keen on it either, for a variety of reasons including the practical of not wanting to lean over the toilet to wash my hands. How would that grab you if it were the only basin in a powder room?

    The answer to my original question is as expected - it is quite OK under the WA plumbing regulations. There are no legal restrictions for use of rainwater inside the home.

    Morbo, these integrated toilets cost around $500 more than the equivalent without the basin. I wouldn't say that's the most cost-effective way of saving water, but, each to their own.

    Posted Tuesday 19 Nov 2013 @ 6:45:32 am from IP #
11. 

    rory
    Member

    I'm no microbiologist, yet but I'm in second year. Yet just follow this logic. Which is cleaner.

    In one method I go to the toilet than flush and then soap up my hands and wash them under the tap that is running to fill the cistern.

    In the other I go to the toilet, flush touch the door handle turn on a tap, soap up, wash hands then I touch the handle that I touched before washing my hands.

    This is the same reason that hands free soap dispensers are useless, the problem is touching the tap after washing your hands.
    This is also why kitchens are required to have hands free( normally foot or IR operated) taps.

    The cost question is probable to biggest downside.

    Posted Thursday 5 Jun 2014 @ 5:26:20 am from IP #
12. 

    Lance
    Key Master

    Which is why you install flick mixer taps and use an elbow to turn it off...

    Posted Sunday 8 Jun 2014 @ 5:23:54 am from IP #
13. 

    Greg
    Member

    There are add ons like this one -> http://www.royalflush.net.au/
    There are commercial versions -> http://www.archiexpo.com/prod/bradley/commercial-stainless-steel-toilets-integrated-hand-basins-61690-604022.html
    Sensor taps incorporated to urinals -> http://designtaxi.com/news/359069/This-New-Design-For-The-Men-s-Room-Urinal-Has-An-Attached-Tap/
    or...
    hang the expense and go with one of these -> http://www.dezeen.com/2010/03/16/ww-by-gabriele-and-oscar-buratti-with-roca-innovation-lab/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dezeen+%28Dezeenfeed%29

    Posted Tuesday 10 Jun 2014 @ 1:24:58 am from IP #
14. 

    Tankie
    Member

    Just a practical comment. When I came to use the cistern-top basin in the client's home I found it really clumsy and awkward.

    1. In a small toilet room you have to lean over the pan to wash your hands
    2. It's a small basin - water goes everywhere
    3. I would think there's a good chance of dropping something down the loo
    4. It just feels like the world's first washbasin, and that one day someone should invent a better one - like being separate, on a pedestal or in a countertop!

    Posted Tuesday 10 Jun 2014 @ 3:24:01 am from IP #
15. 

    Matt
    Member

    Not so handy for small children. Climbing onto the toilet to wash their hands and then climbing back down again. Had this happen with my three year old.

    Posted Tuesday 10 Jun 2014 @ 3:55:58 am from IP #

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