Alternative Technology Assn Forums

1. 

   OptexSolar
   EcoOnline

   Hey guys, perhaps first an introduction, I've been reading these forums a while now, only joined yesterday, I'm passionate about all things to do with renewables and saving energy and the environment of course so much so that I've started a small eco focused business, anyway hope to contribute here ... now that's out of the way

   Is anyone going to see the doco "Fracking Hell" in Melbourne tonight? Depressing reading... the age link is

   http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/movies/fracking-hell-busting-the-natural-gas-myth-20101112-17qxw.html

   I though that gas was clean at least cleaner, but it looks like that might be a myth, the last paragraph is what i've been on about to people all along

   "This is fossil fuel, and fossil fuel is of the last century. This century's job is to make sure that's not what we're dependent on going forward."

   Too right, if we don't get off fossil fuels soon whats going to happen is when peak oil hits hard countries are going to turn to much more carbon intensive reserves like coal and coal liquefaction, deep sea oil, oil shale and tar sand deposits... we'll be leaving the next generation with little easy to get at oil, a large dependence on fossil fuels and of course climate change... it really gets me why people don't understand that we can't keep using newer and newer techniques to extract limited reserves, whats going to happen is we'll keep climbing up the supply hill until all of a sudden we'll fall of it, it's like a species living in a food resource rich but finite area, multiply exponentially until all the food resources are used up, what do you think happen then..

   anyone from the gas exploration industry wants to debunk the doco, is it just sensationalizing or does it have some truth to it?

   Cheers,
   Greg

   Posted Friday 12 Nov 2010 @ 11:53:21 pm from IP #
2. 

   Lance
   Key Master

   Haven't seen the doco but there's huge probs with fracking, there are whole towns where the water sources have become full of natural gas, the water will quite happily burn as it comes out of the tap. Plenty of info on it if you google it. The fossil fuel mobs can't debunk it, there's too much evidence - you can walk into any of these homes and turn on a tap and create an explosive situation, it's just madness...

   Posted Saturday 13 Nov 2010 @ 12:21:14 am from IP #
3. 

   OptexSolar
   EcoOnline

   you're right I just read a few online articles, apparently the toxic chemical mixture they pump underground is a trade secret! How companies are allowed - unregulated - to pump secret toxic chemicals underground, which have the potential to pollute and poison vast regions of underground aquifers is well beyond me... only in America!

   Posted Saturday 13 Nov 2010 @ 3:40:23 am from IP #
4. 

   Diver
   Member

   You have hit on a very serious issue... not only in America!

   The management of aquifers in most countries has historically been ignored and many regions are now drilling down hundreds of meters to pump up the dregs of what was once obtainable just a few metres below the surface. The continuing loss of ground water in many of the world's most heavily populated regions now presents the biggest potential threat to world political stability.

   In the mid noughties, the Sydney Botany Aquifer was found to be contaminated by the long term leaching of toxic substances from heavy industrial sites. Processes have now been put in place to prevent further contamination and householders have also been co-opted to play their part. Interestingly, this includes the non use of grey water on gardens.

   There have been concerns in recent times about threats to Australian ground water from plans to coal mine the Liverpool Plains.

   http://nonewcoal.greens.org.au/publications/climate-change-1/mines-by-region/liverpool-plains-1

   There is still much to learn about aquifers but this much is known; Once an aquifer becomes contaminated, restoring its health takes a long, long time. Fortunately, our aquifers are now closely studied and monitored but all a bit late for Botany Sands.

   Fracking is fraught with the danger of long term aquifer contamination and irreparable damage. The additional threat that fracking presents to our aquifers should not be underestimated. The link below refers to plans for fracking near the Warragamba dam!

   http://www.smh.com.au/environment/water-issues/mine-threatens-city-water-20100923-15osh.html

   http://www.gasland.com.au/2010/10/smh-australian-mining-companies-fracking-with-highly-toxic-chemicals-near-watercourses/

   Posted Saturday 13 Nov 2010 @ 6:30:17 am from IP #
5. 

   OptexSolar
   EcoOnline

   At least here companies have to disclose the chemicals they use, which means that aquifers can be monitored for those chemicals... but on the topic of aquifers apparently CCS is also no good for drinking water

   http://www.nicholas.duke.edu/news/leaks-from-co2-stored-deep-underground-could-contaminate-drinking-water

   Surprise! Who would have thought that pumping tons of CO2 underground under huge pressure would create adverse consequences elsewhere in the system ... gee not me

   but i shouldn't say that, we're going to need CCS to work judging by the way things are going.

   Posted Saturday 13 Nov 2010 @ 1:57:55 pm from IP #
6. 

   Diver
   Member

   Regulation often lags behind new technology and methodology. This news link discloses the non requirement for an environmental assessment of coal seam gas exploration drilling and chemical injection in NSW.

   OptexSolar: Did you see the film the other night?

   http://www.theage.com.au/environment/water-issues/gas-drilling-goes-ahead-without-any-checks-20101114-17sq7.html

   http://www.smh.com.au/environment/coverup-secret-plans-to-mine-gas-20100922-15n0p.html

   Posted Sunday 14 Nov 2010 @ 11:16:35 pm from IP #
7. 

   OptexSolar
   EcoOnline

   Hey Diver,

   No I had something on that night so i didn't see it, I'm going wait till it comes out to a wider audience, looks really interesting

   Posted Monday 15 Nov 2010 @ 5:01:51 am from IP #
8. 

   Catopsilia
   Member

   In case anyone is not familiar with James Howard Kunstler, here is his rant on the topic:
   http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/11/sixty-lame-minutes.html#more

   Posted Wednesday 17 Nov 2010 @ 12:28:42 am from IP #
9. 

   dymonite69
   Member

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-situ_leaching

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverley_Uranium_Mine

   Posted Wednesday 17 Nov 2010 @ 8:28:00 am from IP #
10. 

    Diver
    Member

    There are a number of U.S. regional newspapers reporting aquifer contamination in their local areas. It is disappointing that news reports fail to mention that many aquifers are multi layered and often hold water of dissimilar quality. The potential for and the consequence of cross contamination of such aquifers due to fracking is also concerning.

    http://coloradoindependent.com/36601/epa-chemicals-in-water-might-be-result-of-fracking

    http://www.propublica.org/article/buried-secrets-is-natural-gas-drilling-endangering-us-water-supplies-1113

    Posted Wednesday 17 Nov 2010 @ 1:29:23 pm from IP #
11. 

    OptexSolar
    EcoOnline

    That Colorado read was scary, if you owned a farm and all of a sudden all you've worked for is devalued through underground contamination you'd be heart broken wouldn't you? It's not like a ground oil spill where the spill can get cleaned up and chemicals are weathered and breakdown after a while, underground they have no where to go except to gradually leak into new areas, once contaminated it'll be there for hundreds of years... I'm not an expert so I guess I don't know... but all this for a little bit of gas! Then you have to move on once the gas well runs dry and contaminate another area...

    Posted Wednesday 17 Nov 2010 @ 11:55:27 pm from IP #
12. 

    Diver
    Member

    Googling any area with the terms 'fracking' and 'groundwater' brings up any number of news articles. I combined 'Wyoming" to bring up the following link that has a short but typical video that is worth watching. Methane is a potent greenhouse gas and these sites are predicted to increase in the U.S. at a rate of 32,000 wells p.a. by 2012. This video mentions a methane fog haze; I imagine this indicates widespread ground seepage. Hate to think what this is also doing to the health of the soil and its beneficial microbes!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/14/drinking-water-full-of-me_n_715145.html

    Posted Thursday 18 Nov 2010 @ 1:27:06 am from IP #
13. 

    Johnnojack
    Member

    Quote "once contaminated it'll be there for hundreds of years... I'm not an expert so I guess I don't know...

    Not far wrong but in some aquifers like GAB it can be thousands of years as that is how long it takes for water recharging the aquifer to appear at the other side.

    Posted Thursday 18 Nov 2010 @ 12:36:42 pm from IP #
14. 

    swanning_it
    Member

    The other concern I have is that there seems to be a mentality that we should go gas at any cost.

    I saw a TV interview with someone connected with one of the new gas fields in QLd (that's trialing fracking) and he made the comment that Bob Brown should pull his head in and get onside with fracking technology so we can travel down the road of a "green" energy industry!

    It just seemed to me that one comment said it all.......don't worry about the side effects, the ends justify the means!

    Another point I'm concerned with is how much is known about the chemical concoction.

    What is used, how are they obtained, how much embeded energy is in the chemical composition process, how much more mining will be necessary to meet the new higher demands for these chemicals/elements, what is the waste product and how is that waste dealt with, what is the potential health implications, what "special" arrangements are necessary for safe handling and transport etc, etc?

    Seems to me, these questions and associated costs are another side to the debate, which is so often swept under the carpet until the carpet bulges so much people begin to notice!

    Posted Thursday 18 Nov 2010 @ 8:41:10 pm from IP #
15. 

    Geno
    Member

    Aquifers recharge at very different rates, some can actually have quite fast recharge rates which would mean any contamination may disperse quite rapidly. I am guessing the initial problems are occuring in the slow discharge/recharge areas, is it likely that those faster moving aquifers could spread the problem over a very large area before a problem is recognised?

    Posted Thursday 18 Nov 2010 @ 9:52:58 pm from IP #
16. 

    Diver
    Member

    Aquifers are commonly found in permeable rock with good porosity but rock with low porosity can be an excellent aquifer if it is fractured. Fracturing also opens a potential escape route for gas.

    Fracturing also happens naturally but the process occurs over a very long time frame. Man has been proven wrong too many times after he has altered nature's balance and fracking is a disturbing issue that hopefully will become topical once the media becomes aware.

    I thought Australia had huge gas reserves in the North West Shelf, so why is drilling under Sydney, next to the Warragamba Dam and who knows where else even being considered?

    Posted Thursday 18 Nov 2010 @ 11:14:37 pm from IP #
17. 

    speedo
    Member

    Could be coming to a catchment near you.

    http://www.desmogblog.com/exxon-fracking-fluid-spill-pennsylvania-dumps-13000-gallons-nearby-waterways

    Posted Sunday 28 Nov 2010 @ 6:45:28 am from IP #
18. 

    Diver
    Member

    Independent MP Tony Windsor is intending to have either the Water Act or the Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Act ammended to require surface and groundwater assessments prior to coal seam gas exploration licences been issued.

    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/energy-smart/windsor-plans-new-coal-seam-gas-rules-to-protect-water-20101205-18lej.html

    Posted Monday 6 Dec 2010 @ 1:06:58 am from IP #
19. 

    Diver
    Member

    NSW to follow QLD lead and ban the use of toxic chemicals currently used in the fracking process.

    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/toxic-chemicals-used-to-tap-coal-seam-gas-faces-ban-20101219-19202.html

    Posted Monday 20 Dec 2010 @ 2:52:10 am from IP #
20. 

    Diver
    Member

    There is a growing awareness of Fraccing and a recent Four Corners report is worthwhile viewing.

    http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2011/s3141787.htm

    The news link below is from W.A., a state heavily dependent on ground water supplies. The video link is again well worth watching.

    http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/special-features/fracking-threatens-wa-water-resources/story-e6frg19l-1226010221897

    Posted Wednesday 23 Feb 2011 @ 1:17:38 am from IP #
21. 

    canyoner
    Member

    Scary stuff!
    CSI (the orginal Las Vegas version) even had it in one of their episodes recently.
    At least that's one way of getting the info out to the general public. Get them to know the term 'Fracking' & results.

    Posted Wednesday 23 Feb 2011 @ 2:04:15 am from IP #
22. 

    Frateco
    Member

    This is not good stuff. I'm about 12 km from where they did the first CSG trials in Kingaroy region. The Gov't has shut it down and promptly allowed another to start because they're going to be more diligent. (huh???)

    This is going to be a disaster for the region since it has been in a 12 yr drought with only bores allowing people to get through the drought. If this stuffs the aquifiers, these farmers and townships surrounding are in deep doggy-doo.

    Posted Wednesday 23 Feb 2011 @ 5:50:36 am from IP #
23. 

    solar_lady
    Member

    It's time to haul out the big guns boys - the frackers are targeting our vulnerable Great Lakes now! I know I'm from a long way from your battlefield down under, but this is a subject that infuriates the hell out of me. Led by Halliburton, natural gas frackers are eyeballing Michigan's unexploited NG, with the blessings of the US government. We had a Clean Water Act in place, but these greedy devils are exempt from laws here. Neither do they have to reveal exactly which toxins they're injecting into our drinking water.

    This is a global problem. There isn't a government on earth that isn't in bed with this industry. If you want to save your precious water supplies, you'd better commit yourselves to more than just talking, voting & legislating...

    Posted Friday 25 Feb 2011 @ 3:30:34 am from IP #
24. 

    rockabye
    Member

    Thought I'd re-post this here.

    Shale gas 'worse than coal' for climate

    The new kid on the energy block, shale gas, may be worse in climate change terms than coal, a study concludes.

    Drawn from rock through a controversial "fracking" process, some hail the gas as a "stepping stone" to a low-carbon future and a route to energy security.

    But US researchers found that shale gas wells leak substantial amounts of methane, a potent greenhouse gas.

    This makes its climate impact worse than conventional gas, they say - and probably worse than coal as well.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13053040

    Posted Tuesday 12 Apr 2011 @ 11:27:34 pm from IP #
25. 

    rockabye
    Member

    Next Sunday night SBS is showing Gasland.

    Rough-hewn yet poetic, the film is a desperate plea for scrutiny of a powerful industry that has now turned its eyes on a new, massive and (for now) largely unexplored territory: Australia

    http://www.sbs.com.au/documentary/program/gasland

    Posted Friday 29 Apr 2011 @ 4:23:42 am from IP #
26. 

    EcoOnline
    Member

    Saw Gasland tonight, thanks for pointing it out rockabye. Man oh man, how is it possible that companies can pump toxic chemicals into the ground with complete impunity, only in America - at least I hope. Also I had no idea gas production was so dirty. I highly recommend the documentary to anyone.

    Posted Sunday 1 May 2011 @ 1:35:56 pm from IP #
27. 

    sun2steam
    Member

    What was not mentioned in the film was the impact of fracking on climate change. All the methane escaping into the atmosphere from defects and water sources is driving climate change. With the invention of fracking, natural gas is no more a 'cleaner' form of energy.

    "... Compared to coal, the footprint of shale gas is at least 20% greater and perhaps more than twice as great on the 20-year horizon and is comparable when compared over 100 years. ..."

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/e384226wr4160653/

    Posted Sunday 1 May 2011 @ 2:08:46 pm from IP #
28. 

    rockabye
    Member

    Local farmers starting to feel the effects of the gas industry.

    Farmers fight against coal seam gas industry.

    http://www.abc.net.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2011/3207117.htm

    Posted Wednesday 4 May 2011 @ 1:18:20 am from IP #
29. 

    Buzzman
    Member

    I, too, saw the Gasland doco and was horrified. Chaney pushed thru the exemptions to the Clean Water Act etc while he and his muppet Bush were in power.

    Talk about a greasy eminence, if you'll pardon the fractured pun.

    I hope every Oz politician was watching, but I suspect only Brownie and Co would have been on that channel. Sigh.

    At least T Windsor Esq has a conscience and will be concerned enough to block anything that goes this direction - we hope...

    Posted Wednesday 4 May 2011 @ 12:43:55 pm from IP #
30. 

    cw nsw
    Member

    http://www.propublica.org/article/scientific-study-links-flammable-drinking-water-to-fracking

    a new story just published on PRO PUBLICA

    Posted Monday 9 May 2011 @ 9:52:00 pm from IP #

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